Thinking about Building an RV-7, but I have a few questions

[cgrossl]

I really considering building an RV7, but I have some questions and concerns before I decide to dive in. First off, I am a little over halfway through my private pilot training. I should have my certificate in a month or two. I have been building old cars and hot rods for 12 or 13 years and I am a Design Engineer and a wannabe machinist for a small company here in central KY. So, I am very confident that I have the skills needed to build the plane. I also have a 24x24 garage to build it in, so I have workspace. I can also use the big shop at work if I need to.

Anyway, my first question is how much should I budget to do this? I want an RV7 (taildragger) with night VFR capabilities. I want a VFR panel, with a GPS. I don't want IFR capabilities, but I may elect to upgrade later. I am just fine with regular steam gauges on the panel, but from what I have seen so far, a glass panel costs about the same, if not less (correct me if I am wrong on this). I can take care of the upholstrey work and the paintwork. I am thinking of installing a mid time Lycoming engine. An O-320 or 360 would be fine. Even with the smaller 320, the RV will vastly outperform the Cessna that I'm used to flying. The cost estimator on Van's website is saying 50-55k, but it seems to leave out alot of the smaller items that always seem to add up to alot of money when doing a project like this. So, do you think I can build what I want for 50K?

Of the many reasons that I chose the RV7, one was its capabilty for sport aerobatics. This really appealed to me and is something that would like to do, after proper training. I am just anticipating occasional loops, rolls, spins, and maybe a hammerhead stall, not full on aerobatics or extended inverted flight. Under what conditions will you need an inverted kit for the engine? I plan on installing flip flop fuel pickups, but they don't cost much. Do I have to do anything to the fuel caps or vents? What about the fuel pumps? Will a carburetor work for my application, or will I have to go with fuel injection? If I do need an inverted kit and fuel injection for what I want, what are the limits of the regular oiling system and carburetion? What is a good source for Lycoming engine info?

Finally, I know that I am an extremely low time pilot. If I start building now, I would think that I would have somewhere between 100-200 hours by the time the plane was built. I have always had a better than average "feel" for controling vehicles, even at their limits, but have to wonder if the RV7 will be too difficult for me to fly with only 100-200 hours. I am planning on getting my tail wheel endorsement right after I get my PPL.

I would really like to get a ride in an RV before I decide to build. If anyone is reasonably local to Lexington, KY, I would be more than happy to pay for your fuel and time for a ride in an one.

[flybill7]

Cameron Grossl,

Here are some thoughts from someone who is well into the building of an RV-7. While it is possible to build a perfectly good RV-7 for 50K, I would caution you that it is awfully hard to resist the urge to add nice-to-have items, and soon you are at the $70,000+ point. While you are building, you are reading and learning about all these wonderful things that you can put in your airplane that you can't do to a factory-built plane. They are hard to resist, especially after you have been working on your plane for awhile, and you want it to be the best it can be.

It sounds like gentlemen's aerobatics are a priority for you. You may decide that a mid-time O-320 isn't enough power. Used O-360s aren't as plentiful as the 320s, so maybe you just buy new. A few more thousands dollars there. To fly extended inverted you need fuel injection and inverted oil. A few more thousands. You can get 10 more horsepower with a horizontal sump. Another couple thousand. To get that awesome climb rate, you'll want a constant speed prop. A lot more thousands. On those long cross-countries, sure would be nice to have a wing-leveler. Another couple thousand. I'm not going to even get into avionics!

... Bill

[svanarts]

Hi Cameron and welcome, you picked an excellent plane to start out with both for building (lots of support and customization options) and flying (any RV files better than most "average" FBO rentals.

55K is just about right on for a plane with an O320 and wood prop, basic instrumentation, and no paint. If you're a good scrounger and aren't prone to making mistakes that would cause you to order a new part, you can build cheaper. If you want a bigger engine, constant speed prop, or a glass panel, the price will start going up from 55K to whatever you can afford.

The thing I would suggest is don't try to make the plane look like what you fly now. If you think you would *ever* like to do lots of cross country travel, aerobatics, or whatever, go ahead and outfit the plane that way in as much as you can afford it. These planes do go fast compared to a Cessna, but after you get used to that speed, you'll want more, don't skimp if you can afford it. Get the 180 hp motor and CS prop now if you can.

I'll have to defer aerobatics questions to the experts. I don't do them.

Don't worry about flying the plane, it will not be difficult, quite the opposite. In fact, you will find that most other planes become difficult to fly. Get some time in a Citabria and you'll find the only problem you have with a tailwheel RV is slowing it down to the proper airspeed for landing. They will slow right down but it will feel wierd to you after having just gone so fast.

I'm getting ready to build my second RV, an RV-7 so I look forward to building right along with you! Best of luck!

[szicree]

50K is definitely do-able. There are lots of guys who've done it for less and plenty who've spent gobs more. It's real easy to get either sucked in or discouraged by all the planes that have every imaginable gadget, but even the most bare bones RV is still one heck of a nice ride. I'm in the finishing stages (kind of) and here's a short list of some compromises I've made:

No lights except wig-wag leading edge lights. Originally I had planned to have a fancy lighting system, but by the time I got to the end realized I don't really feel safe flying single engine at night over a city, and the extra weight and wiring complexity wasn't worth the trouble. Keep in mind that night flight requires not only external lights, but also lights for instruments and interior. By the way, the only reason I have the wig-wags is because back when I built the wings I cut holes for them. RV building lesson number one: You can't undrill a hole.

Originally I had planned on full inverted oil and fuel, but that was before I had any acro experience. I now know that I can do most of the fun stuff without negative g and I don't really like sustained inverted flight anyhow. I do have a floptube in the left tank just in case I ever change my mind.

My panel is pretty much the basics but I did spring for a GRT engine monitor. Having a computer simultaneously keep track of all engine parameters gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. I have no vacuum system or gyros, but I stuck a Trutrak ADI front and center to help me live if I ever screw up and get into IMC. My compass is of the whiskey variety and I just added a Lowrance 2000c gps that does all the cool stuff at a very reasonable cost.

Engine will probably be Superior 360 carbed with a Catto prop. I know that a constant speed is cool, but I also know that this plane is gonna be a giant kick in the butt with just about any engine/prop.

I'll paint it myself and skip the $10,000 paint job. I also built the seats myself and they came out pretty darned good (considering a guy did the sewing).

I started this project back in 99 before all this glass panel, quick build, pre-punched, leather seat stuff got going. I look more to the budget builders for inspiration rather than the guys with the bottomless pockets. This is ceratainly not meant as a dig towards those building the fancy stuff, it's just not my scene.

Years ago I built a guitar and the coolest part was getting to shape the back of the neck to suit MY hand instead of having to adapt to somebody elses idea of the right shape. Build it to suit YOUR mission and ENJOY!!

[robertahegy]

I built my 7A for just under 80K using all new equipment, engine (0-360) and C/S prop. It is a steam gage panel with KMD 150, SL70 xpndr, SL40 com. For just positive G aerobatics, no special fuel or oil system is needed. These are 2004 prices, I painted it and did most of the interior, except seat upholstery. It is night VFR.

Hope this helps.

Roberta

[Mel]

Cameron,
The O-320 has plenty of power. My O-320 powered RV-6 has been doing all normal aerobatic maneuvers with no problems for over 13 years. I have a friend with a heavy -6 and a weak 150hp and he does full aerobatic routines regularly. You don't need the flop tubes unless you intend negative maneuvers, which the RVs aren't especially suited for anyway. The flop tubes also move your tank senders outboard 1 bay and decrease the usfullness of you fuel gauges.
There are many people who will try to tell you that you HAVE to have more power. It simply isn't true! More power is fine if that's what you want, but it is not necessary for an RV.
I know I will get flamed for this post, but that's my $.02 for what it's worth.

[Jamie Aust]

[quote=Mel]Cameron,
The flop tubes also move your tank senders outboard 1 bay and decrease the usfullness of you fuel gauges.
[quote]

I didnt know this Mel, is that for both Cap and Float types ??

[Kyle Boatright]

I agree 100% with what Mel said. Clearly, he's a smart guy!

Second, as others have said, your $50k budget is doable if you're careful.

You can find used tail and wing kits at a discount in Trade a Plane or if you keep your ears and eyes open around the homebuilt community. I paid $600 for my used RV-6 tail kit 11 years ago. That was a 40% discount compared to what a new tail kit would have cost. In addition, the $600 tail kit came with well over a thousand dollars of slightly used tools at no extra charge. I probably got the tail and tools at 25% of retail cost. I did something similar when it was time to buy a wing kit. In addition, I bought an engine core and rebuilt it myself.

If you're worried about whether you can handle a taildragger, get your tailwheel sign-off, or at least some instruction and make your choice at that time. With the slow build wing and tail kits, you've got a lot of work to do before you need to decide where the little wheel goes.

[Mel]

Jamie,
I'm not sure about the capacitance gauges. They may still work in the first bay with flop tube. My main point was that unless you intend pretty significant aerobatics, the flop tubes add extra cost and weight and don't offer any benifit without inverted oil and fuel injection, which again adds more cost and weight..

[cgrossl]

Thanks for the info.

To give you all a better idea of what I want, I don't want to do any negative G maneuvers. But, even positive G aerobatics will get a plane in some fairly extreme attitudes and I just don't know if the regular fuel and oiling systems are set up for that or not. I just don't know enough to know what the limits of the regular system are. This is my hot rod background coming out, but all I can see in my head is oil getting away from the pickup during even the mildest aerobatics. I guess I need to see how the pickup is setup. Come to think of it, I don't even know if a Lycoming has a dry sump oiling system or not. Any insight or links to websites with good info you all could give me on this would be appreciated.

As for horsepower. I know what you mean about always wanting more power. I have a 69 Camaro in my garage with about 500hp. It used to be alot of fun, but then I started flying airplanes. My line of thinking right now is that even with the 160hp O-320, an RV7 will run circles around the Cessna 150 and the 172 that I have been flying. If and when the time comes, I will look for a 360 first, but I suspect that I will settle for a 320 if my budget won't allow the 360. I would prefer a mid to high time engine with a known history over a new one. In my experience, an engine that is about halfway through its life has proven that it was put together right, and with good components and it isn't likely to fail anytime soon. With a new engine, there is alot of unknowns and I want to eliminate as many unknowns as possible for that first flight. Plus, with a mid or high time engine, I want to do the overhaul when the time comes, but I don't want to do my first overhaul on an aircraft engine then put it in my first plane for its first test flight. Make sense, or am I just showing my ignorance?

I do plan on getting my tail wheel endorsement along with some tailwheel time after I get the endorsement. My concern is how much harder is a taildragger RV to handle than say a Cub or Citabria during takeoff and landing. I know that the RV7 is a sport plane and I also know that there are some planes out there that low time pilots have no business in. From what I have heard, the RV7 isn't one of these plane, but I wanted to get some more opinions before I decided what I am going to do.