IFR training for the frugal

[Mike S]

Originally Posted by kholsinger

Hope to do my checkride the end of this week.

Wish me luck....

Good luck to you

[60av8tor]

Originally Posted by Phlyan Pan

That is a really cool suggestion that I've never seen recommended before. I can imagine how it might help out a lot though.

First post here. I'm a lurking, hopefully future RV owner, but this is a great thread. I think instrument training is some of the most valuable training to get. It isn't always easy and can get frustrating, but it is very rewarding, and will improve your airmanship across the board.

I'll shoot a practice approach almost every time I'm out. Eventually you realize that GPS, VOR, ILS, DME arcs are pretty much the same no matter where you are - just different altitudes, frequencies, etc. You can expect the same calls from approach at similar points, etc. Once you expect all these things, everything slows down and you begin getting ahead of the aircraft again - difficult and frustrating for most new IFR students. Don't forget to do some full procedures from time to time as well. It makes some approach controllers cranky (their prerogative to deny), and burns a little more gas, but sometimes we get so used to vectors, we lose some of our sharpness on the entire plate - procedure turn heading, outbound timings, step down altitudes, etc.

One thing that helped me become proficient (not sure of the practicality of this in the civilian training environment - obviously not at all in two seaters) was to be a passenger on training flights. I would jump in the back of the helo, spread out my ELA and approach plates, get on the ICS, and just listen and follow along. I retained much more this way (procedurally) than I did up front trying to do everything while fighting to keep the greasy side down. Also, assuming you have the BI stuff down, and positive aircraft control is no issue, a lot of IFR proficiency is procedural and can be practiced chair flying. I used to go through entire flights in my head - getting a clearance, switching to departure on climb out, hand off to center, calling approach, getting my final vector and approach clearance, etc. All these things will be very similar regardless of location - and knowing what to expect and when to expect it, IMHO, is more than 1/2 the battle while IFR.

Lastly, always remember that it is VERY difficult to simulate the effects of true IMC. You can have a brazillion hours under the foggles or at night, but it can all be different the first time you're truly in it - especially when dealing with different cloud banks, shapes etc. I've had portions of flights where I would have bet a years pay that I was in a 35' bank, but I'm staring at a wings level AI. I just burried my head in the instruments, trusted what they were telling me, and trucked on. VERY hard to do at times - even with experience - and not something you want to do solo for the first few times.

Sorry for the rant, but I LOVE IFR, and encourage everyone to complete the ticket.

[Mike S]

Originally Posted by 60av8tor

First post here. I'm a lurking, hopefully future RV owner,

Jon, welcome aboard the good ship VAF

Good to have you here, thanks for the input on the training issue.

[AMac]

Hello all,

I hope I'm not out of place here, I did my IFR in another country where the requirements are different but I think there are a few common threads.

1. You wont save money by trying to do an IFR ticket cheaply. Cr@p instruction will see you repeat flights to get competency.

2. Find a crusty old bar steward (instructor) that flew/flies real IFR, that is, night freight etc. Crusty old bar stewards are worth finding, if they are still around it means they have learnt lessons that you wont have to!

3. Do fly as much of your rating in imc weather as possible.

4. When you do get your ticket, fly a practice approach (if you don't have to fly a real one!) every flight you do.

5. IFR is an attitude (pardon the pun). If you are flying for business you sometimes need to take a breath and slow it down before you hop in the plane.

6. Go back to number 1 and have a think about it.

7. A sneaky peak is worth a thousand scans

[Mike D]

Thanks for the information and opinions. I hope others are receiving value from this post. I know I am.

Update:
I have found a few instructors that will train in the RV. So this is a viable route.

There is a huge variation in ground school costs. Anything from free (self study) to around $2K. I will go the simi-free route. Of course the knowledge test fee applies to all methods.

The real question now is, do you upgrade the plane to fly IFR or do you rent a IFR capable plane. There is no cheap way around this. It is going to cost some real bucks. I have almost given up several time just based on the cost.

The other thing I have found is that there is a lot of mis information out there. Let's just keep it at that.

There are also some awesome simulators out there.

At the moment my plan is to upgrade the plane and go with a school that has a full motion sim, and that will instruct in my plane. After all this is what I will be flying after I have the new ticket.

Does this sound okay? Anybody done it this way? Regrets?

[rv9av8tr]

Can a Private Pilot act as safety pilot if the safety pilot is now flying as a Sport Pilot? In otherwords, they just don't have a current Class III Med...

[RV6_flyer]

Originally Posted by rv9av8tr

Can a Private Pilot act as safety pilot if the safety pilot is now flying as a Sport Pilot? In otherwords, they just don't have a current Class III Med...

Only if they are in an aircraft that does not require a pilot that has a medical. In other words, only in an LSA aircraft or one that meets the LSA Sport Pilot criteria.

[RV10inOz]

Wot this bloke said, I was lucky to have lots of rough weather. But my first solo IMC flight was still a bit tense, so I would hate to think how w newbie goes after a fair weather quick course.

wise words Doug

Originally Posted by B25Flyer

Unfortunately getting the rating and learning how to fly in the weather are usually two entirely different projects. Unless you are fortunate enough to have a highly experienced instructor, and bad weather during your training, they seldom go hand in hand.

Get the rating however works best for your schedule and lifestyle. Then find a local instructor or safety pilot who will fly with you on some trips in the real world and take them along to build confidence and experience.

Cram courses are fine for passing the written. And there are good accelerated instrument courses... It all boils down to what works in your personal schedule and life. For the most part, the faster you complete the training, the less it will cost.

In reality, get the rating and then fly in the weather. At first when the weather is really skunky, take an experienced pilot with you until you get comfortable.

Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
Designated Pilot Examiner

[Chris Hill]

Originally Posted by Mike D

At the moment my plan is to upgrade the plane and go with a school that has a full motion sim, and that will instruct in my plane. After all this is what I will be flying after I have the new ticket.

I've got some time in full motion sims, and my opinion is that the additional cost for you renting time in the FM sim would be a waste.

Full motion adds to the fidelity of a specific aircraft flight (or ground) model. An example would that you get the buffet that feels as it would in the real plane, or you feel the bumps in the concrete as you taxi. That level of fidelity is really aimed at training you for a specific aircraft, and in your case, it is an additional cost that won't really help you get where you want to go.

If it costs the same as a sim with no motion, then by all means, have fun!

[Mark33]

Can you do all of your instrument training with non certified equipment such as a G3X with WAAS GPS? I know that you can't legally fly in instrument conditions with non certified equipment, but it sure would be nice to do all of your instrument training in your own airplane and save on the rental fee and then put that money back into your own bird when you could afford to upgrade to the required certified equipment.