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05-22-2012, 07:15 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Kansas
Posts: 332
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Well, the good news and bad news
Okay, I took out he cleco's this evening. Cleco's came out fairly easily. A few were a little stubborn, but no big deal. Then I tried to remove the rudder from the angle -- it was stuck.  I carefully inspected it without going any further to see what was going on, and it was so tight I couldn't see between the angle and rudder. So, fortunately I had an angle that was about a foot longer than the rudder, which gave me something to grip, so I grabbed the open end and began twisting carefully and slowly. Finally, the angle popped loose, but not without exerting a fair amount of torsion. I was afraid when it broke loose that it had also broken the rudder skins apart, but that didn't happen, and the rudder appears to not have been damaged by the problem.
I was a bit surprised that the angle stuck as badly as I had feared since I had applied Boelube to the angle. I must have slathered on too much epoxy, but there's no guidance for something like this, so I did what I thought was right.
The good news is that I have a VERY straight rudder trailing edge. I haven't riveted yet, and plan to let it set for another 24 hours before doing that, but based on what I'm seeing and have read posted by others, I doubt riveting will cause a problem. That T88 epoxy seems to be some pretty tough stuff.
This may not have happened with the proseal, but I chose the epoxy route, and in the end it turned out okay. I'm just glad I had a long enough angle to help me twist it off the trailing edge. The thought of having to try to pry the angle off the rudder was not very appealing.
Also, cleaning out the dimples was actually easy, even though they had a fair amount of epoxy oozed out into them. At first I carefully used a #21 drill bit with my hand to clean out the dimples, and that worked very well. But then I grabbed the battery powered screwdriver with the deburring tool and it made quick work of cleaning out the dimples. I spot checked some rivets after the clean up and they fit just fine with no debris holding them out of place.
Hope this helps those that come behind me. 
__________________
Jim
Lenexa, KS
RV-7A
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05-22-2012, 07:50 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Meridian ID, Aspen CO, Okemos MI
Posts: 2,645
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epoxy
Stalldog,
I used proseal and wish I had used epoxy. I am just more comfortable with epoxy and used it for years. I was to generous with the proseal and my edge isn't as "clean" as I would like it. I am going to use a light weight fiberglass tape folded over the edge and filled to hide the edge and rivets completely.
I know filling the rivets is not very popular around here, but wow, does the rest of my rudder look great!
__________________
rockwoodrv9a
Williamston MI
O-320 D2A
Awaiting DAR Inspection
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05-22-2012, 09:00 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Kansas
Posts: 332
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Rockwood, not sure I understand why you would do that with the fiberglass tape. Did the proseal cause your rivets to stand up proud of the dimples? Personally I think that neat line of rivets looks pretty good.
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Jim
Lenexa, KS
RV-7A
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05-22-2012, 10:42 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Meridian ID, Aspen CO, Okemos MI
Posts: 2,645
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I just like the looks
The edge of the rudder looks fine as it is and the proseal did not keep the rivets from looking great. Between the rivets, I may have a bit too much proseal, but not to a level that would be noticeable to anyone but me. I will put the tape over the edge and smooth it out with a combo of epoxy, fairing agents, and glazing compound. So far what I have done looks great.
I come from a boat building background - everything from hand built kayaks, canoes, sail boats, and restoring Chris Craft run-a-bouts. I like a glass smooth finish. I have seen some beautiful RV's with amazing rivet work, but there is still some dimpling on surfaces like the wings, stabilizers, and rudder. I am in the process of filling them so I get a flat, smooth, surface to paint.
Im not trying to cover up anything, just make the finish I want on my plane. Some informed me that if I was getting judged at OSH, it would be a deduction - something I don't give a rats a$$ about.
Im not trying to convince or even care if anyone else does the same thing. It is my plane and the way I want it to look is what makes the difference.
I guess my point was epoxy is a fine product to use on the rudder and other edges. After using both, I think the epoxy is easier - but maybe with more experience, I would be able to use both well. The advantage of epoxy is if applied correctly, it will never come off, much harder than the aluminum itself, can be sanded, and covers well with paint. It also does a great job of filling in rivet dimples.
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rockwoodrv9a
Williamston MI
O-320 D2A
Awaiting DAR Inspection
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05-23-2012, 04:51 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Kansas
Posts: 332
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I understand, my friend, and I'm sure it will look great. Maybe even faster!  In the end the epoxy worked fine for me, as you suggest, but it did give me a scare. I doubt the proseal hardens like epoxy!
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Jim
Lenexa, KS
RV-7A
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06-05-2012, 07:40 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Fontana, CA.
Posts: 74
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Please proceed with caution
Rockwood,
You mentioned that you used a lot of proseal and now you would like to add fiberglass tape to cover the rivets. I would check with vans first, but all that weight that far back from the hinge point, from my understanding, could cause the rudder to be out of balance....... Unless you plan on adding more weight to counterbalance your fiberglass installation.
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Aaron Boulais
Stuck in spam can land for now.....
Will build when I retire in 25 years 
Donation Made 4/13/2015
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06-05-2012, 08:41 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Macon, GA
Posts: 499
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You could have put an adjustable wrench on the free leg of your angle and piped it off no problem.
Regular cheap turtle wax works good for making sure clecos and the like don't get stuck....goop it on....
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Macon, GA (KMCN)
RV-7, Niner Fife Victor
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07-02-2012, 07:56 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Carmel, IN
Posts: 28
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Rockwood,
Just seconding with a reply to have you reconsider your plan about your rudder trailing edge. Training edge shape in flight controls at the speeds RVs are capable of, is very important. It's a little involved, but if will affect the amount of pressure required for a given hinge moment, and might also adversely affect a flutter speed. I wouldn't be too cavalier about modifying it.
Rivets are cool....exquisite in a riveted metal structure.
Take care,
Brad
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07-02-2012, 08:42 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Meridian ID, Aspen CO, Okemos MI
Posts: 2,645
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filling rivets and smooth rudder trailing edge
After looking at quite a few photos of other rudder assemblies, I don't think I used any more than others did. The total amount I used would easily fit into 1/2 of an egg shell - and much of it squeezed out.
I ended up not using tape on the trailing edge of the rudder. It didn't need it after I filled and sanded. I did fill all the rivets with a thin coat of light weight filler. I filled the HS and VS too. I carefully weighed each piece and none gained over 2.5 ounces, total gain for the 4 parts was just under 8 ounces after sanding and cleaning the dust off. I am sure I will save that much weight when I prime the parts because the surface is smoother and the primer will not build up in depressions.
If 2.5 ounces added overall on the entire rudder will make it flutter, then I bought the wrong kit. Most everyone else that used proseal or epoxy on the trailing edge did too since it is much easier to gain or lose that much just by the quantity used.
I will be filling the rivets on my wings when I build them too - at least the tops. I did notice when I saw the RV-1 that the wing rivets were filled. I like the look of a smooth wing and rudder.
I am not trying to convince anyone that they should do it too, it is just what I am doing. I have many years of experience with epoxy and fiberglass and I am bright enough to understand how adding too much weight in one location on a control surface could cause problems. I have not done that and filling the rivets and smoothing out the trailing edge does not unbalance the rudder. A smooth surface has better airflow.
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rockwoodrv9a
Williamston MI
O-320 D2A
Awaiting DAR Inspection
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07-02-2012, 08:49 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Kansas
Posts: 332
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Rockwood, just curious, I took the EAA composite class this past weekend, which was my first experience with fiberglass. So, if you fill the rivets, how do you smooth them out? Do you just take scotchbrite or sandpaper to the aluminum surface???
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Jim
Lenexa, KS
RV-7A
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