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  #131  
Old 05-20-2012, 08:37 PM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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For all the glider guys here talking about 200 foot rope breaks, Larry hit the nail on the head - RV's are COMPLETELY different animals, and you might think about the bit that you're setting in some low-time RV pilot's mind. Someone who doesn't have a lot of hours could be reading this thread and going "Hmmmm....there are lots of folks whose name I recognize that think this is doable...so maybe I can do it too...." Is that the impression you want to leave?

Let's face it - folks successfully turn back and land after an engine failure, but many die trying. I would bet that almost every one of those that died trying though they could do it.

"Absolute Altitude" determined by testing? Hey, that's great experience to go an get for your airplane. Now....how does it change with wind conditions? Altitude? Aircraft loading? Do you have a chart that you can use before each takeoff to determine if today's limit is 400', 500', or 600' ? There are a lot of variables - have you considered them all?

I've said this before, but if you turn back, and fly perfectly, you might make it and live. If you DON'T make it, you almost certainly will die. If you land/crash straight ahead, under control at the lowest possible airspeed, you may be hurt, but evidence shows you will most likely live.

Like Larry and many others, I have been trained and practice this in sailplanes. I won't do it in a powered airplane, and I won't tell others that they should even consider it. A hundred years of aviation experience says the odds are against you.

Paul
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  #132  
Old 05-21-2012, 05:51 AM
sailvi767 sailvi767 is offline
 
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One thing to mention in this thread. This is not to advocate a turn back but something each pilot should explore in his aircraft. Go out and practice accelerated stalls. You would be surprised at how many pilots have never done one. You will learn a lot about how your aircraft if you run through a series of them. Try them at 1.5, 2 and 3 and 4 G's. You may find your particular aircraft stalls quite differently in a accelerated mode with different warning signs then in a 1 G stall. It will also give you a baseline of how much G is available at various airspeeds.

George
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  #133  
Old 05-21-2012, 08:19 PM
B25Flyer B25Flyer is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
For all the glider guys here talking about 200 foot rope breaks, Larry hit the nail on the head - RV's are COMPLETELY different animals, and you might think about the bit that you're setting in some low-time RV pilot's mind. Someone who doesn't have a lot of hours could be reading this thread and going "Hmmmm....there are lots of folks whose name I recognize that think this is doable...so maybe I can do it too...." Is that the impression you want to leave?

Let's face it - folks successfully turn back and land after an engine failure, but many die trying. I would bet that almost every one of those that died trying though they could do it.

"Absolute Altitude" determined by testing? Hey, that's great experience to go an get for your airplane. Now....how does it change with wind conditions? Altitude? Aircraft loading? Do you have a chart that you can use before each takeoff to determine if today's limit is 400', 500', or 600' ? There are a lot of variables - have you considered them all?

I've said this before, but if you turn back, and fly perfectly, you might make it and live. If you DON'T make it, you almost certainly will die. If you land/crash straight ahead, under control at the lowest possible airspeed, you may be hurt, but evidence shows you will most likely live.

Like Larry and many others, I have been trained and practice this in sailplanes. I won't do it in a powered airplane, and I won't tell others that they should even consider it. A hundred years of aviation experience says the odds are against you.

Paul
+1000

Doug Rozendaal
F1 EVO
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  #134  
Old 05-21-2012, 08:22 PM
B25Flyer B25Flyer is offline
 
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And Btw... many gliders are up elevator limited and wont stall above 30 degrees of bank.... There is very little transfer between turning back in a glider vs airplane...

Doug Rozendaal
Private Pilot Glider
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  #135  
Old 05-22-2012, 05:11 AM
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pierre smith pierre smith is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B25Flyer View Post
And Btw... many gliders are up elevator limited and wont stall above 30 degrees of bank.... There is very little transfer between turning back in a glider vs airplane...

Doug Rozendaal
Private Pilot Glider
Paul and Doug give great advice!

When I trained in a Schweizer 232 (sp?), and was taught rope-break turnbacks from 250' I went really!!?...horse of a totally different color than a powered airplane.

Best,
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  #136  
Old 05-22-2012, 07:15 AM
RV8R999 RV8R999 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
RV's are COMPLETELY different animals, and you might think about the bit that you're setting in some low-time RV pilot's mind. Someone who doesn't have a lot of hours could be reading this thread and going "Hmmmm....there are lots of folks whose name I recognize that think this is doable...so maybe I can do it too...." Is that the impression you want to leave?Paul
-1000

I think the people reading this FORUM are smart enough to make their own decisions and don't need motherhood...


-Just fly the airplane...if at some point during the turn back it appears you will not make it, roll level and fly it in. You are no worse off than taking the hardline of NEVER allowing the possibility of a turn back. Many airports these days are surrounded by residential areas with little kids playing in the streets or back yard... Why do you get to risk their lives for fear of learning to fly the plane back to a safe haven? At my airpark, one runway has totally open fields for several miles and probably would be as easy as landing on the runway..no brainer. The other runway however, has a huge kiddie park, a ballpark and soccer fields all surrounded by rows and rows of residential homes and a shopping center. No way I'm going straight in from that runway if I have any altitude at all to attempt a turn (600ft). At less than 600 ft I'll start a turn anyway toward the least popluated area (to the right) with expectations of rolling level early and maybe plopping into the little pond before the park.

Making an absolute statement for or against a turn back is in my opinion irresponsible when the manuever itself is well within the capabilities of any airplane provided the pilot learns how to do it.
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  #137  
Old 05-22-2012, 07:52 AM
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rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV8R999 View Post
-Just fly the airplane...if at some point during the turn back it appears you will not make it, roll level and fly it in. You are no worse off than taking the hardline of NEVER allowing the possibility of a turn back.
Actually if you have to terminate the turn you are worse off. You are now committed to landing down wind (unless the wind is totally calm).
If the wind is very strong, you may have just changed a mostly guaranteed survivable forced landing into a much less survivable one. The choice to turn back may have been a fatal one even if you don't spin in.
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  #138  
Old 05-22-2012, 07:54 AM
RV8R999 RV8R999 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
Actually if you have to terminate the turn you are worse off. You are now committed to landing down wind (unless the wind is totally calm).
If the wind is very strong, you may have just changed a mostly guaranteed survivable forced landing into a much less survivable one. The choice to turn back may have been a fatal one even if you don't spin in.
it isn't a binary decision.
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  #139  
Old 05-22-2012, 09:30 AM
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DanBaier DanBaier is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV8R999 View Post
...if at some point during the turn back it appears you will not make it, roll level and fly it in.
The trap here is that you'll be in a tight turn - probably with a high bank angle (remember the overbanking tendency). If you just crank in aileron to recover, you could generate enough adverse yaw to put you into an unrecoverable spin.

Dan
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Last edited by DanBaier : 05-22-2012 at 09:40 AM.
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  #140  
Old 06-02-2012, 11:29 AM
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Ron Lee Ron Lee is offline
 
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I did my first tests today. I decided on a road that would be used to start the procedure. My energy state was 120 MPH indicated, 700' AGL and 800 FPM climb.

Up to altitude and do several tests pulling the mixture to cutoff...engine stops running then idle mixture in again. It works as it should. Prop never stops.

Climb up to 5000-6000' AGL and set up the target airspeed and climb rate. At the road, mixture to cutoff. I started pushing the nose down too quickly since I wanted to wait a few seconds. Thirty degree bank. IAS always above 100 MPH indicated and when over the runway I had lost 1200'.

Second try I bank 45 degrees. Airspeed still too high and again around 1200' lost.

I am not pleased with the airspeed control. Plus if I am higher, I am also further from the airport so will have to make adjustments the next time I try it.

Last edited by Ron Lee : 06-02-2012 at 11:44 AM.
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