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  #21  
Old 05-29-2012, 06:32 AM
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tkatc tkatc is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
ATCs job is to separate IFR aircraft from other IFR aircraft. After all, if you were below 10000' you aren't required to have a mode C, nor are you required to talk to ATC. Exception: in class B ATC will separate all aircraft. that's why VFR minimums go to "clear of clouds".
ATC will separate VFRs from IFRs in class C airspace also. The minimum, however, is 500' vertical and "green between" aka "target resolution". Basically it means "DONT LET THEM HIT!".
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  #22  
Old 05-29-2012, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by tkatc View Post
This is incorrect. The RJ could have easily gotten an RA based upon the RV transponder information ONLY. The likely reason there was no RA in this case was because everyone was in level flight and the vertical separation was not diminishing enough to trigger the advisory.

Not sure why the RJ boys seemed so uptight but the "dirty belly" comment probably reminded them to relax. Traffic was called, the RV reported them in sight, and they probably saw the target on the fish finder the entire time.
Respectfully...

I sit on the other side of your frequency everyday. I appreciate your comments as a Controller.

If I'm at 10,000 doing 320-350Kts and come within 500' of an RV doing 170kts... 500kts closure with only 500' makes me uptight

The only one with positive contact was the RV. We as RV pilots are all yeager/pappy and crossfield in one I'm sure the RJ pilot didnt recognize this "fact" and was nervous about relying on the unknown talent of said RV driver.

Example: If not on Autopilot, RV pilot maintaining Visual strays from altitude because "where the eyes go... the body follows" (ask my wife)

ATC alert sounds at 200' off altitude... Now we are down to 300'

I take the time to type all this because... I've been there a couple of times. Hauling 150 pax with 500' separation and 500kts of closure rate. Some controllers do nothing, some call traffic and steer you 10-15 degrees off course for traffic. I say THANKS to the controllers that are "over protective".

For the original RV driver that posted:

In this situation I would not use "I'd like a turn or descent". I use, "I'm turning to avoid and descending for traffic".

Professional or Not? I would have made the exact same comment that you did about the dirty belly.
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  #23  
Old 05-29-2012, 06:40 AM
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RV10inOz RV10inOz is offline
 
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Bob

I see that Walt has posted about having your transponder checks done, but all this is useless unless your STATIC is accuarte.

Do a GPS box and compare your GPS derived TAS to your indicated TAS. From a CAS which most new EFIS will be or damned near enough to.

If you are IFR any more than 3 knots error and I would not be happy with the static error, for VFR no more than say 5 knots max error.

The ffect on your static could be up to 150' in some cases and that cuts 500 down to 350 feet, and less if they have an error too

Ignore this at your own peril.
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  #24  
Old 05-29-2012, 06:49 AM
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LeeM_2000 LeeM_2000 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhino889 View Post
Respectfully...

I sit on the other side of your frequency everyday. I appreciate your comments as a Controller.

If I'm at 10,000 doing 320-350Kts and come within 500' of an RV doing 170kts... 500kts closure with only 500' makes me uptight

The only one with positive contact was the RV. We as RV pilots are all yeager/pappy and crossfield in one I'm sure the RJ pilot didnt recognize this "fact" and was nervous about relying on the unknown talent of said RV driver.

Example: If not on Autopilot, RV pilot maintaining Visual strays from altitude because "where the eyes go... the body follows" (ask my wife)

ATC alert sounds at 200' off altitude... Now we are down to 300'

I take the time to type all this because... I've been there a couple of times. Hauling 150 pax with 500' separation and 500kts of closure rate. Some controllers do nothing, some call traffic and steer you 10-15 degrees off course for traffic. I say THANKS to the controllers that are "over protective".

For the original RV driver that posted:

In this situation I would not use "I'd like a turn or descent". I use, "I'm turning to avoid and descending for traffic".

Professional or Not? I would have made the exact same comment that you did about the dirty belly.
I don't understand your closure numbers. The 500' separation should only happen when the IFR vs. VFR traffic is moving in relatively the same direction. IFR vs. VFR traffic on opposing courses would have 1000' separation unless my ASA kneeboard lies to me.
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  #25  
Old 05-29-2012, 06:55 AM
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LettersFromFlyoverCountry LettersFromFlyoverCountry is offline
 
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No way I come within 500 feet of another airplane. 499' is only one foot away. Who needs the aggravation?

There's also the little matter of me not knowing who's piloting that other plane. Maybe his TCAS is showing you incorrectly, so maybe he dips just a bit to avoid you.

I'm pretty conservative in these matters, though.
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  #26  
Old 05-29-2012, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by springer View Post
If I had been you in my RV-4 I would have maneuvered 20-30 degrees away from the RJ and not made the unprofessional remark.
I expect a turn away of 20-30 degrees would have merely delayed the encounter an put the RV smack in the middle of the wake turbulence. I doubt the outcome would have been so jovial.

A rate 1 orbit may have still encountered the wake.

Ok to continue IMHO, 500' is scary close though, next time I would recommend a 180 degree turn away.
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  #27  
Old 05-29-2012, 07:01 AM
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tkatc tkatc is offline
 
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IFRs do not always follow the NEODD SWEVEN rules of altitude (nor do VFRs for that matter ) because ATC might have a multitude of reasons to assign such a conflicting altitude.

As far as closure rates, I do see the point, but in my head, skilled or unskilled, the guy with the other aircraft in sight doesn't want to die either. At least that's the logic I grew up with before 9/11.
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  #28  
Old 05-29-2012, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeM_2000 View Post
I don't understand your closure numbers. The 500' separation should only happen when the IFR vs. VFR traffic is moving in relatively the same direction. IFR vs. VFR traffic on opposing courses would have 1000' separation unless my ASA kneeboard lies to me.
If he passed 500' below the RJ, then he was on a roughly reciprocal course. Had the RJ been overtaking him, the RJ would have been 500' below. (assuming level flight, of course)

Think about it:
IFR flight, westbound: 8000'
VFR flight, westbound: 8500' (above IFR)
VFR flight, eastbound: 7500' (below IFR)

So 500' vertical separation is possible regardless of relative courses.

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  #29  
Old 05-29-2012, 07:10 AM
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Rhino889 Rhino889 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeM_2000 View Post
I don't understand your closure numbers. The 500' separation should only happen when the IFR vs. VFR traffic is moving in relatively the same direction. IFR vs. VFR traffic on opposing courses would have 1000' separation unless my ASA kneeboard lies to me.
Wow?

OK.... he's in a hover and I'm passing at 343kts within 512'. Do you still feel good about the separation?

Apparently the entire original intent of my post was lost on you because your kneeboard numbers differed from my general/rounded examples? Oh ya, I also really only had 147 pax on the plane... sorry about stating 150

ASA Kneeboard Vs Real-world:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tkatc View Post
IFRs do not always follow the NEODD SWEVEN rules of altitude (nor do VFRs for that matter ) because ATC might have a multitude of reasons to assign such a conflicting altitude.
Regards,

Scott
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Last edited by Rhino889 : 05-29-2012 at 07:14 AM.
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  #30  
Old 05-29-2012, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Lambert View Post
That's probably what gave them the willies. They both had their heads down watching the finder and not looking out the window.

500 feet crossing north of Atlanta in VFR seems to be the norm.
The normal airliner (737) approach into Burbank is "Palmdale at 12K, Janny at 8..." I routinely fly home from the Los Angeles basin at 7.5K and also agree that 500 ft is the norm with "traffic in sight" I think it's cool watching them pass right over head! Rosie
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