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05-29-2012, 06:32 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,747
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner
ATCs job is to separate IFR aircraft from other IFR aircraft. After all, if you were below 10000' you aren't required to have a mode C, nor are you required to talk to ATC. Exception: in class B ATC will separate all aircraft. that's why VFR minimums go to "clear of clouds".
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ATC will separate VFRs from IFRs in class C airspace also. The minimum, however, is 500' vertical and "green between" aka "target resolution". Basically it means "DONT LET THEM HIT!". 
__________________
My ATC opinion is NOT an official FAA recognized opinion, so any advice you get from me is ONLY my opinion.
Track my RV7A!!
Bought my flying -7A
Building an -8! (Fuse)
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05-29-2012, 06:39 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Jupiter FL.
Posts: 451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkatc
This is incorrect. The RJ could have easily gotten an RA based upon the RV transponder information ONLY. The likely reason there was no RA in this case was because everyone was in level flight and the vertical separation was not diminishing enough to trigger the advisory.
Not sure why the RJ boys seemed so uptight but the "dirty belly" comment probably reminded them to relax. Traffic was called, the RV reported them in sight, and they probably saw the target on the fish finder the entire time.
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Respectfully...
I sit on the other side of your frequency everyday. I appreciate your comments as a Controller.
If I'm at 10,000 doing 320-350Kts and come within 500' of an RV doing 170kts... 500kts closure with only 500' makes me uptight
The only one with positive contact was the RV. We as RV pilots are all yeager/pappy and crossfield in one  I'm sure the RJ pilot didnt recognize this "fact" and was nervous about relying on the unknown talent of said RV driver.
Example: If not on Autopilot, RV pilot maintaining Visual strays from altitude because "where the eyes go... the body follows" (ask my wife  )
ATC alert sounds at 200' off altitude... Now we are down to 300'
I take the time to type all this because... I've been there a couple of times. Hauling 150 pax with 500' separation and 500kts of closure rate. Some controllers do nothing, some call traffic and steer you 10-15 degrees off course for traffic. I say THANKS to the controllers that are "over protective".
For the original RV driver that posted:
In this situation I would not use "I'd like a turn or descent". I use, "I'm turning to avoid and descending for traffic".
Professional or Not? I would have made the exact same comment that you did about the dirty belly. 
__________________
VAF DUES 7/13, 12/13, 03/14
Founder/Director
www.Aircraftwraps.com
Replace paint with performance.
This is my personal account and does not reflect the official communications of Aircraftwraps.com. We have retained a username for such correspondence. I post about formation, eating, aerobatics and pilot stuff  .
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05-29-2012, 06:40 AM
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Brisbane Qld. Aust.
Posts: 2,271
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Bob
I see that Walt has posted about having your transponder checks done, but all this is useless unless your STATIC is accuarte.
Do a GPS box and compare your GPS derived TAS to your indicated TAS. From a CAS which most new EFIS will be or damned near enough to.
If you are IFR any more than 3 knots error and I would not be happy with the static error, for VFR no more than say 5 knots max error.
The ffect on your static could be up to 150' in some cases and that cuts 500 down to 350 feet, and less if they have an error too
Ignore this at your own peril.
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05-29-2012, 06:49 AM
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: KS
Posts: 110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhino889
Respectfully...
I sit on the other side of your frequency everyday. I appreciate your comments as a Controller.
If I'm at 10,000 doing 320-350Kts and come within 500' of an RV doing 170kts... 500kts closure with only 500' makes me uptight
The only one with positive contact was the RV. We as RV pilots are all yeager/pappy and crossfield in one  I'm sure the RJ pilot didnt recognize this "fact" and was nervous about relying on the unknown talent of said RV driver.
Example: If not on Autopilot, RV pilot maintaining Visual strays from altitude because "where the eyes go... the body follows" (ask my wife  )
ATC alert sounds at 200' off altitude... Now we are down to 300'
I take the time to type all this because... I've been there a couple of times. Hauling 150 pax with 500' separation and 500kts of closure rate. Some controllers do nothing, some call traffic and steer you 10-15 degrees off course for traffic. I say THANKS to the controllers that are "over protective".
For the original RV driver that posted:
In this situation I would not use "I'd like a turn or descent". I use, "I'm turning to avoid and descending for traffic".
Professional or Not? I would have made the exact same comment that you did about the dirty belly. 
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I don't understand your closure numbers. The 500' separation should only happen when the IFR vs. VFR traffic is moving in relatively the same direction. IFR vs. VFR traffic on opposing courses would have 1000' separation unless my ASA kneeboard lies to me. 
__________________
RV-7
In progress...
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05-29-2012, 06:55 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: St. Paul, MN.
Posts: 4,792
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No way I come within 500 feet of another airplane. 499' is only one foot away. Who needs the aggravation?
There's also the little matter of me not knowing who's piloting that other plane. Maybe his TCAS is showing you incorrectly, so maybe he dips just a bit to avoid you.
I'm pretty conservative in these matters, though.
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05-29-2012, 06:58 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by springer
If I had been you in my RV-4 I would have maneuvered 20-30 degrees away from the RJ and not made the unprofessional remark.
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I expect a turn away of 20-30 degrees would have merely delayed the encounter an put the RV smack in the middle of the wake turbulence. I doubt the outcome would have been so jovial.
A rate 1 orbit may have still encountered the wake.
Ok to continue IMHO, 500' is scary close though, next time I would recommend a 180 degree turn away.
__________________
Doug Gray
RV-6 completed, flying since July 2010
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05-29-2012, 07:01 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,747
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IFRs do not always follow the NEODD SWEVEN rules of altitude (nor do VFRs for that matter  ) because ATC might have a multitude of reasons to assign such a conflicting altitude.
As far as closure rates, I do see the point, but in my head, skilled or unskilled, the guy with the other aircraft in sight doesn't want to die either. At least that's the logic I grew up with before 9/11.
__________________
My ATC opinion is NOT an official FAA recognized opinion, so any advice you get from me is ONLY my opinion.
Track my RV7A!!
Bought my flying -7A
Building an -8! (Fuse)
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05-29-2012, 07:06 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Brookshire, TX
Posts: 1,036
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeM_2000
I don't understand your closure numbers. The 500' separation should only happen when the IFR vs. VFR traffic is moving in relatively the same direction. IFR vs. VFR traffic on opposing courses would have 1000' separation unless my ASA kneeboard lies to me. 
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If he passed 500' below the RJ, then he was on a roughly reciprocal course. Had the RJ been overtaking him, the RJ would have been 500' below. (assuming level flight, of course)
Think about it:
IFR flight, westbound: 8000'
VFR flight, westbound: 8500' (above IFR)
VFR flight, eastbound: 7500' (below IFR)
So 500' vertical separation is possible regardless of relative courses.

__________________
Philip
-8 fuselage in progress (remember when I thought the wing kit had a lot of parts? HAHAHAHAHA)
http://rv.squawk1200.net
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05-29-2012, 07:10 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Jupiter FL.
Posts: 451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeM_2000
I don't understand your closure numbers. The 500' separation should only happen when the IFR vs. VFR traffic is moving in relatively the same direction. IFR vs. VFR traffic on opposing courses would have 1000' separation unless my ASA kneeboard lies to me. 
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Wow?
OK.... he's in a hover and I'm passing at 343kts within 512'. Do you still feel good about the separation?
Apparently the entire original intent of my post was lost on you because your kneeboard numbers differed from my general/rounded examples? Oh ya, I also really only had 147 pax on the plane... sorry about stating 150
ASA Kneeboard Vs Real-world:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tkatc
IFRs do not always follow the NEODD SWEVEN rules of altitude (nor do VFRs for that matter  ) because ATC might have a multitude of reasons to assign such a conflicting altitude.
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Regards,
Scott
__________________
VAF DUES 7/13, 12/13, 03/14
Founder/Director
www.Aircraftwraps.com
Replace paint with performance.
This is my personal account and does not reflect the official communications of Aircraftwraps.com. We have retained a username for such correspondence. I post about formation, eating, aerobatics and pilot stuff  .
Last edited by Rhino889 : 05-29-2012 at 07:14 AM.
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05-29-2012, 07:11 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: I live in on the Rosamond Skypark (CA) and am married to Victoria (Tuppergal).
Posts: 982
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Lambert
That's probably what gave them the willies. They both had their heads down watching the finder and not looking out the window.
500 feet crossing north of Atlanta in VFR seems to be the norm.
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The normal airliner (737) approach into Burbank is "Palmdale at 12K, Janny at 8..." I routinely fly home from the Los Angeles basin at 7.5K and also agree that 500 ft is the norm with "traffic in sight"  I think it's cool watching them pass right over head! Rosie
__________________
Paul A. "Rosie" Rosales
Rosamond Skypark (L00), CA
RV-6A, 4200+ hours since 7/4/2000
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