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05-16-2012, 08:48 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Redlands, Ca.
Posts: 1,458
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[quote=Captain Avgas;659861]Don, you , and others on this thread, keep referring to the prevention of "flip-overs" or "turn-overs" as the defining criterion of success in respect of the Anti-Splat Nose Job.
However I would refer again to the Anti-Splat product description from their website:
"A propeller strike, engine disassembly for inspection or other damage may be avoided not to mention a dreaded possible flip over we have seen so many times".
Thus it is clear that the manufacturers are claiming that the product will assist in reducing the incidence of nose gear failures leading to "propellor strike" and "other damage".
I think it is becoming obvious to everyone here on this forum that you have some sort of not so hidden agenda. Again you very conveniently are playing word games by leaving out the prior sentence in the statement you quoted that defines it. Why is beyond me!
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"When operating your aircraft from an unimproved surface i.e. grass, dirt, poor runway surface or in an emergency off field landing this devise could help prevent a costly rebuild or repair. A propeller strike, engine dis-assembly for inspection or other damage may be avoided not to mention a dreaded possible flip over we have seen so many times."
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These are very intelligent people here and are not that easily deceived.... 
On an added note, Thanks in part to this thread, we sold seven "Nose Jobs" today!
__________________
Allan Nimmo
AntiSplatAero.com
Innovative Aircraft Safety
Products, Tools & ServicesInfo@AntiSplatAero.com Southern California (KREI)
RV-9A / Edge-540 
(909) 824-1020
Last edited by PerfTech : 05-16-2012 at 08:57 PM.
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05-16-2012, 09:15 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: KSLC
Posts: 4,021
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Quote:
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As a postscript to all of this I think it is a very sad indictment of the Vans nose gear design that perhaps 1000 builders or more (to date) have exhibited so little faith in Vans offering that they have rushed out to buy a relatively expensive third party bracing device which has yet to be proven successful in the field. It really does suggest that there's a lot of concern, and even desperation, among RV(A) builders/flyers out there.
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I do get the feeling, that this is one of those "glass half empty" statements. Otherwise known, as a pessimistic attitude. This product is one of those, "when **** hits the fan, kind of products. Kind of like a parachute when the wing falls off. Or synthetic vision just before you hit the mountain.
This is a product, that I definitely wish I'd had. After all, I owned an RV6A. It's the one with shorter gear, and not that many nose wheel collapses. My prop is destroyed. The gear is ruined, and possibly the engine. Let's don't be so dismissive based on conjecture. Yes conjecture. I read a previous post from this same author, that was almost total conjecture in the last paragraph. Quite a pessimistic outlook at best.
L.Adamson
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05-16-2012, 09:48 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: KSLC
Posts: 4,021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Lee
If that is your aircraft Mr Adamson, did the event happen on a paved surface or grass/dirt?
I have only seen the aftermath of one 6A flipover. The plane was sliding with gear bent for a ways on asphalt and did not flip until that nosegear encountered dirt when the plane went off the runway.
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Paved runway, in excellent shape. No momentum to flip over, nor did we ever feel we were about to. This is a case of the little "almost" benign bounce developing into a bigger one. In other words, I should have just powered out of it. I must have seen to many taildraggers landing, and dimissed it. This event was a follow up to the best landing, my RV ever saw. This accident is an "incident". You might not find it, in a search.
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05-16-2012, 09:57 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Avgas
I think it is becoming obvious to everyone here on this forum that you have some sort of not so hidden agenda. Again you very conveniently are playing word games by leaving out the prior sentence in the statement you quoted that defines it. Why is beyond me!
.
"When operating your aircraft from an unimproved surface i.e. grass, dirt, poor runway surface or in an emergency off field landing this devise could help prevent a costly rebuild or repair. A propeller strike, engine dis-assembly for inspection or other damage may be avoided not to mention a dreaded possible flip over we have seen so many times."
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These are very intelligent people here and are not that easily deceived.... 
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I have no hidden agenda whatsoever and the accusation that I am trying to "deceive" forum readers borders on the paranoid. I left out the first sentence because it adds no significant meaning to the second sentence that I quoted (in the context of the point being made). It's as simple as that.
As I have stated previously I am totally impartial on this issue. And I am not pessimistic, nor optimistic about the product. I just prefer an enlightened statistical approach to gauging the success of the Anti-Splat brace based on field experience, rather than relying on the word of the manufacturer or the wishful and intuitive thoughts of builders who are not even in the air with the product yet. One of the main benefits of VansAirforce is to enable a forum that allows for members to openly discuss RV products with a view to a considered exchange of opinion based on personal experience and leading hopefully to enlightenment for all concerned.
That a manufacturer is now making posts haranguing members in a bid to dissuade them from making other than complimentary comments about his product is unprecedented on VansAirforce. And I'm not sure that it's a good trend.
__________________
You’re only as good as your last landing 
Bob Barrow
RV7A
Last edited by Captain Avgas : 05-16-2012 at 10:31 PM.
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05-16-2012, 10:10 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: KSLC
Posts: 4,021
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[ed. Civility rules violation. I deleted the text here. dr]
Last edited by DeltaRomeo : 05-17-2012 at 05:06 AM.
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05-17-2012, 03:48 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sedalia, Colorado (KAPA)
Posts: 320
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Engineering
We trust the discipline of engineering with our lives every day. It generally works. In some cases, the value of a mechanism in terms of added safety factor is obvious to the layman, for example adding redundancy to an electrical circuit. In other cases, for example the ASA device, it is not so obvious to the layman but to the engineer who understands strength of materials, finite element analysis, etc., that added factor of safety is no less certain.
My point is that even without statistics, we have data. Engineering data. Humans, particularly the ones smart enough to build airplanes, understand that and they put their money where their understanding of engineering tells them there is a reasonable rate of return. The thousand builder/pilots, many engineers themselves, that bought this product are highly unlikely to be wrong.
And I will add that the statistics that many folks would suppose to be conclusive on this issue won't be. There is a pervasive human characteristic that simply can't be accounted for. If the device works, folks will slowly build up tolerance for poorer and poorer landing techniques until bad things happen, even with the reengineered leg. Unless we have data for all of the variables that go into landing technique ( rate of descent, back pressure, etc), as well as damage rates, the stats will be misleading.
I do not have to wait for statistics to assess this product. They will be interesting, but I trust the engineer before the statistician.
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Duane Zavadil
RV-6a, IO-320
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05-17-2012, 08:54 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Glendale, AZ
Posts: 256
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Let's face it, the 7A NG has reason to give pause
I don't think I am desperate, but I am concerned. My 7A is not flying yet but it does already have an Antisplat on it. A guy in my EAA chapter just had this happen on a smooth field and now we have seen and heard of too many of these incidents to dismiss this problem as a non problem. He did not strike the prop or go on its back, but the strut looks like all the others, bent way back with that characteristic arc to it. Something is going on and it is reasonable for concerned builders to try something, IMO.
I was not convinced by the marketing words. But the video is impressive and sold me. Clearly the leg can take much more rearward force without failing with it. On that basis I felt it was worth a try. I will watch for odd wear on the back of the leg though during routine inspections though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Avgas
As a postscript to all of this I think it is a very sad indictment of the Vans nose gear design that perhaps 1000 builders or more (to date) have exhibited so little faith in Vans offering that they have rushed out to buy a relatively expensive third party bracing device which has yet to be proven successful in the field. It really does suggest that there's a lot of concern, and even desperation, among RV(A) builders/flyers out there.
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__________________
Roger Whittier
RV7A Quick Build, Tip Up
N1MY Reserved - Canopy finished - Wings mated, Engine hung, electrical 95%
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05-17-2012, 11:18 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,256
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"In other cases, for example the ASA device, it is not so obvious to the layman but to the engineer who understands strength of materials, finite element analysis, etc."
THAT'S what I'd like to see...the engineering analyses that were done on both the unadorned gear leg, and this new mitigation device.
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Steve "Flying Scotsman"
Santa Clarita, CA
PP-ASEL, ASES, Instrument Airplane
RV-7A N660WS flying!
#8,000
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05-18-2012, 07:44 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: AUSTRALIA
Posts: 749
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I have done about 50 landings with the brace on my 9A and hundreds of landings before installing the brace. Most of these landings have been on my short grass airstrip with at least moderate and sometimes hard braking required. The surface of the strip is reasonably smooth although it is a bit tussocky and therefore bumpy in places. I know the nose strut is working hard and presumably flexing because I can feel and hear it jiggling about once the nose is lowered to the ground.
I just had a close inspection of the strut and there is absolutely no evidence that the ends of the brace have contacted the strut. So it would seem likely that the strut is mostly flexing to a concave shape (as viewed from the front of the aircraft) and this would actually increase the distance between the ends of the brace and the strut. To contact the brace, the strut would have to bend the other way. I posted this video on another thread so apologies if you have seen it before but if you increase the quality and screen size you can see the movement of the strut on my grass airstrip.
I have noticed no difference in the feel of the ground handling with the brace installed.
Others have reported that the ends of the strut have contacted the brace. Maybe all struts do not come out of the factory the same and some have a slightly convex shape however this is unlikely as Antisplat Aero would have noticed this as they used a number of new struts in their product development. Could it be possible that some struts that show contact with the brace have been deformed due to an earlier landing/taxing incident that put a slight permanent bend in the strut???
Fin
9A
Last edited by Finley Atherton : 05-18-2012 at 07:51 PM.
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05-18-2012, 08:50 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finley Atherton
I just had a close inspection of the strut and there is absolutely no evidence that the ends of the brace have contacted the strut. So it would seem likely that the strut is mostly flexing to a concave shape (as viewed from the front of the aircraft) and this would actually increase the distance between the ends of the brace and the strut. To contact the brace, the strut would have to bend the other way. I posted this video on another thread so apologies if you have seen it before but if you increase the quality and screen size you can see the movement of the strut on my grass airstrip.
I have noticed no difference in the feel of the ground handling with the brace installed.
Fin
9A
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Fin, thanks for the very informative feedback and comments. It was particularly encouraging that you have not noticed any wear of the brace against the gear strut given your "unmade" strip. Hopefully others will follow suit and also provide reports on their real-world experiences with the Anti-Splat mechanism in due course so that a greater body of knowledge can be made available to RV builders/flyers to assist them in making an informed purchase decision.
__________________
You’re only as good as your last landing 
Bob Barrow
RV7A
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