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05-13-2012, 12:00 PM
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Senior Curmudgeon
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
Posts: 15,420
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Here is how I have done it.
Apx 3-4 seconds of prime after the fuel pressure gauge hits 20#----with the mixture at full.
Crack throttle, crank----usually starts 2 or3 blades.
I always use the bypass valve to shut down the engine, never touch the mixture for shutting down.
Find out what works for you, and stay with it.
__________________
Mike Starkey
VAF 909
Rv-10, N210LM.
Flying as of 12/4/2010
Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011 
Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.
"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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05-13-2012, 12:05 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rv10ch
I always thought that fuel injected engines had a difficult warm start behavior, but on my engine that is child's play compared to the cold start behavior. So I suspect I have some kind of an engine problem but I don't know what an I need some help.
I've got a rebuilt Barrett IO-540 with AFP fuel injection, 9:1 pistons, left Bendix magneto and right Electroair electronic ignition. I've studied and used AFP's recommended start procedure. It will not ignite. After a while (about three times ten seconds) I normally get anxious that I have flooded the engine and do an "flooded engine start" with full throttle. In this mode I've managed to get it started every time.
When it is finally started, the warm up RPM is not stable (at 1200 rpm and below). At mag check RPM (1800) it is fairly stable and in flight i notice no issues. The unstable RPM may be worse when returning from a flight when the engine is hot.
The RPM is unstable on both ignitions alone as well as both together. So it seems not to be related to ignition problems.
After start (cold engine) I see a fuel flow of about 6 gph and a fuel pressure of 20 psi (at 1000 rpm). Is that OK?
Also worth mentioning is that I have not installed the AFP purge valve, or to be precise, it is installed but plugged and inoperable - and leak free.
Any advise what to check for is greatly appreciated.
Lorenz.
RV-10 #40280
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I have the same set-up as you do as far as the IO540, Left Mag and Right ElectroAir and AFP FI system. My purge valve is functioning though. I never have a cold start problem. I DO (contrary to what some say) purge the system for 10 seconds with boost pump on, mixture full rich and purge valve at ICO. After 10 seconds, open the throtle 1/4" and open the purge valve completely, count to 10 and crank.... fires up after 2 or 3 blades religiously. I do remember my fuel flow at idle reads only 2-2.5 GPH, not the 6 that you are experiencing. Hot starts are: Mixture full rich, purge valve at ICO, run boost pump 30-45 seconds to purge, then throttle at idle and crank simultaniously while slowly advancing the purge valve to open. Takes a second or two of cranking but the engine fires and idles fine. I would DEFINITELY hook up your purge valve and have your fuel flow meter checked. 6 GPH at idle sounds like an awful lot. If it is correct, maybe somehow you *are* flooding the engine? I am NOT an A&P, just giving you my experiencees with the same setup you have. Good luck!
__________________
Dennis Roberts
Wake Forest, NC
EAA 1114, Apex, NC
N713DR Super-7 IO/540  SOLD
http://www.drrv7.com
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05-13-2012, 05:09 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Locust, NC
Posts: 440
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FM200?
If you really have 6gpm flow at 1000rpm your idle mixture is way too rich and needs to be adjusted. If so, it is no wonder you have an erratic idle. Refer to the very nice instruction book from Airflow Performance on how to adjust. Using the mixture rather than the purge valve during start and shutdown will leak raw fuel into the throttle body causing a couple problems. Check with Don at Airflow and he will probably tell you those things first. He can also sell you an instruction manual.
__________________
Dave
M20C
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05-13-2012, 06:02 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Dallas/Ft Worth, TX
Posts: 5,686
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Fuel flow indications at idle can be quite un-reliable in my experience.
__________________
Walt Aronow, DFW, TX (52F)
EXP Aircraft Services LLC
Specializing in RV Condition Inspections, Maintenance, Avionics Upgrades
Dynamic Prop Balancing, Pitot-Static Altmeter/Transponder Certification
FAA Certified Repair Station, AP/IA/FCC GROL, EAA Technical Counselor
Authorized Garmin G3X Dealer/Installer
RV7A built 2004, 1700+ hrs, New Titan IO-370, Bendix Mags
Website: ExpAircraft.com, Email: walt@expaircraft.com, Cell: 972-746-5154
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05-13-2012, 06:30 PM
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Brisbane Qld. Aust.
Posts: 2,271
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Quote:
Just to add my 2c -
I have found that with the idle mixture properly adjusted, on a properly operating FI system, that leaning at low RPM/taxi/run-up is not required.
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Walt, This would be a first. Something I do not quite agree with in your posts.
But Happy to learn something new. Please tell me more about the setup you believe is optimum. Of the ones I have seen, setup and tested as per the instructions, they all have been responding to ground leaning as I expected.
Not sure how much measrured effect it has on WOT/FR from the idle circuit. Never been interested to test it but it would be insignificant I would have thought.
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05-13-2012, 06:55 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: ____
Posts: 829
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Mattituck Engines website
To the thread starter, my own experience is most similar to RV 10 in Oz.
Check the tech advice section of Mattituck Engines website, then click on
"Good operating habits"
On the ground my mixture lever is about half way to ICO for peak rpm.
Best of luck!
PS I never purge, hot or cold. 2 slick mags,Slick Start on LH side. Air Flow Performace FI
I would guess you are flooding the pre start and running too rich after started. On the ground at idle you
can not hurt anything By leaning for peak RPM.
Last edited by F1R : 05-13-2012 at 08:35 PM.
Reason: Accuracy
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05-13-2012, 07:41 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Dallas/Ft Worth, TX
Posts: 5,686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV10inOz
Walt, This would be a first. Something I do not quite agree with in your posts.
But Happy to learn something new. Please tell me more about the setup you believe is optimum. Of the ones I have seen, setup and tested as per the instructions, they all have been responding to ground leaning as I expected.
Not sure how much measrured effect it has on WOT/FR from the idle circuit. Never been interested to test it but it would be insignificant I would have thought.
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No scientific data, but having maintained a number of aircraft with both FI and carbs, I have noticed that lead deposits always seem heavier in carbed engines and I suspect this is mainly from ground ops. If the carb guys don't aggresively lean on the ground (and many do not) you can almost guarantee heavy lead deposits in the plugs.
Conversly most of the FI engines I see seem to run cleaner plugs overall and generally have less lead deposits even with no ground leaning (myself included).
You can adjust both for a 50 RPM increase, but in both cases the above still holds true.
I think the off idle mixture may be better controlled in the FI system and/or better atomization of the fuel may also be a factor.
__________________
Walt Aronow, DFW, TX (52F)
EXP Aircraft Services LLC
Specializing in RV Condition Inspections, Maintenance, Avionics Upgrades
Dynamic Prop Balancing, Pitot-Static Altmeter/Transponder Certification
FAA Certified Repair Station, AP/IA/FCC GROL, EAA Technical Counselor
Authorized Garmin G3X Dealer/Installer
RV7A built 2004, 1700+ hrs, New Titan IO-370, Bendix Mags
Website: ExpAircraft.com, Email: walt@expaircraft.com, Cell: 972-746-5154
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05-13-2012, 07:57 PM
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Brisbane Qld. Aust.
Posts: 2,271
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 Agreed, and the reason for better atomisation in the FI is most likely the air velocity and temperature of the engine early on, the cold one is not going to atomise as well with the carby.
I would suggest that following my tips in the previous posts will minimise lead balls, over 50 hours we get very few if any.
Like I say, does everything it should and nothing it shouldn't. One other benefit is that done the way I describe there is no chance whatsoever of anyone taking off partially leaned and in detonation. It drives me mad when I see folk lean just a little bit. One day they will forget and not realise it. Will clean up the pistons and heads nicely though!
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05-14-2012, 01:44 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 4
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I'll start with mixture adjustment
Thanks for all expressed wisdom here!
AFP's recommended procedure without purge valve is:
Mixture ICO
Throttle 1/8
Boost On
Move Mixture to full rich until FF 4-6gph and return to ICO
Boost off
Crank. When engine fires move Mixture to full rich and throttle to idle.
This is what I've tried - without success.
The high fuel flow is surely a sign that idle mixture is too rich. I had my difficulties to properly adjust mixture and idle rpm. The main problem was that an adjustment that was OK one day was off the next day. When Idle was adjusted to 750 rpm on day one it got below 600 rpm the next day. The same with the mixture. It was very sensitive to adjustments. When checking the mixture my DAR stated it was too lean, as there was no rpm rise when putting the mixture to ICO. I then adjusted the idle mixture by turning the rod one flat and that's I have been using.
RV10inOz: Your cold star procedure puzzles me: You crank with mixture ICO. When it fires, I suppose you run the mixture up as you describe in "hot start"?
So the first thing I will look at is idle mixture and see if aggressive leaning can make the engine smoother on ground.
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05-14-2012, 02:15 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,516
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I think we are homing in on the problem.
Your question to OZ tells me that you are cranking with the mixture full rich,
yet a few lines above you correctly describe the cold start procedure as stated by AFP.
4th line from the top
Quote:
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Move Mixture to full rich until FF 4-6gph and return to ICO
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You must have added a step by moving the mixture back to rich prior to cranking. This will most certainly flood your engine.
Your right hand will be on the power Knob (mixture  ) when the engine fires, advance the mixture knob.
You are correct, the adjustments to the idle mixture is very sensitive and unless you accomplish this task with an engine at operating temperature as described in the AFP manual you'll be chasing that sweet spot, where you get a 50 RPM rise on shut down forever.
As to leaning the mixture to the max with fuel injected engines I can't argue with Walt's real life experiences when looking at engines at overhaul time.
However, the 50 RPM rise you get on shut down is added richness you don't need for taxiing around and at today's fuel prices you might as well lean it to the max, you can't hurt the engine by leaning it on the ground.
While fouling the plugs is indeed a problem of less concern in injected engines, leaning to the max on the ground especially on the way back to the hangar will keep the plugs cleaner and ready for an easy start next time you go flying.
__________________
Ernst Freitag
RV-8 finished (sold)
RV-10 Flyer 600 plus hours
Running on E10 mogas
Don't believe everything you know.
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