VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

  #1  
Old 05-12-2012, 02:59 PM
MrMorden MrMorden is offline
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Athens, GA`
Posts: 22
Default RV-12 vs Sonex

Hey all...

I'm a first time builder, currently about 600hrs and halfway through a Sonex (tail done, fuselage 90%). Frankly, I'm finding the build a bit frustrating. The kit requires a lot of fabrication, with all the builder error that can generate. I've scrapped or re-built a LOT of parts during the process. I've learned a lot, but frankly I was hoping for a less stressful building experience.

I'm considering abandoning the Sonex in favor of starting an RV-12. I have heard some conflicting information though...some sources have said:

1) The kit comes with all parts completely pre-cut & formed (no more fabrication?!?)

2) All holes come match drilled out to final size and deburred (no more deburring?!?)

However, I read some builders talking about deburring edges and skins, and this has me confused...is the kit deburred from the factory or not? Or is it just the holes deburred, and you still have to smooth tool marks/nicks in angle pieces and skins?

Honestly, if 1 & 2 are correct, it sounds almost too good to be true. In fact, if that's right what is involved in building an RV-12 airframe other than just aligning parts, clecoing, and riveting? I'm sure there's more to it than that, but it sounds a **** of a lot easier than the measuring/drilling/cutting/bending operations I've been doing, and a lot less prone to builder error.

I'd love to hear what your experiences are with the RV-12 kit, especially where you think there are any real problems or difficulties in building the RV, or if you have any Sonex building experience to compare with. Do you feel the plans/instructions are clear?

Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-12-2012, 03:34 PM
DonFromTX's Avatar
DonFromTX DonFromTX is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: La Feria Texas
Posts: 3,822
Default

I feel your pain. I visited the Sonex factory and looked over Sonex very well before settling on the RV12, and my next project wll probably be a OneX. There is a LOT of difference in the two planes. One of the factors was the very narrow cockpit of the Sonex along with a lot more building time required. I am 74 and want to do some flying, not spend the rest of my life building.
Some of what you have heard is incorrect, there IS matchdrilling required, deburring of sheets and holes ARE required, and there is some minor fabrication of pieces from stock, very simple and easy though. Since I have not actually built a Sonex, I can assure you the RV12 is far easier, far less complicated, and far faster as a result. I have actually enjoyed the building process, it was all been fun and fast. You can click on my builders log to get a feel for the speed of building, yet I am in no race to get it done, it is so much fun to build!
__________________
A&P, PP-SEL, Pathological Flier, EAA Technical Counselor
EAA Chapter 595 President,http://www.595.eaachapter.org/index.htm
Retired US Army Officer
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-12-2012, 03:45 PM
Bill_H's Avatar
Bill_H Bill_H is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Marshall TX (KASL)
Posts: 1,783
Default

First time builder. Only one part ruined - a $5 stall switch mounting plate that I countersunk on the wrong side! (Even after I marked it!!!) Fabrication? As close to zero as you can imagine, like cutting some funky-shaped pieces from angle aluminum. (A small amount of fab had to be in the kit to meet the nebulous 51% rules that were in transition at the time the -12 was designed.) Some people had issues doing the longerons - described as the toughest task in the kit. Search this forum for THWACK to see how easy it an be. The kit is phenomenal.

You do have to deburr the edges of the pieces. A scotchbright wheel on a grinder takes care of this, and a deburr tool for the inside of some lightening holes if you want to deburr them. A deburr bit in an electric screwdriver will get a lot of use. A small-diameter scotchbright weel, an electric drill, and one leather glove makes easy work of deburring edges of large pieces of aluminum like the wing skins. No jigs. 99.5% of holes are drilled to final size. Your own levels of workmanship will determine how much deburring you do, I did a lot and it was not a problem at all.

There are wonderful blogs that show you exactly what you will have to do. My favorites are:
http://www.schmetterlingaviation.com/
I made the decision to build the plane after reading that one. He has a 56MB pdf file you can download covering the 1st half of the build in entertaining detail.

An early builder is here. About every small issue he found in the kit has been taken care of in subsequent revisions:
http://martysrv12.blogspot.com/

Absolute perfection in workmanship can be seen in this set of photos:
http://tonytessitore.smugmug.com/RV-12Project

And for a quick look - just pics - of the entire build you can see my public facebook album. What you see took<950 hours total of a very careful 1st time builder.
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...3&l=a2b29e894a

Building "Sweetie" was a huge amount of fun and almost zero frustration.

I recommend those mentioned blogs plus a few hours spent searching through this absolutely invaluable forum. Good luck!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-12-2012, 04:24 PM
DaveLS DaveLS is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Pensacola, FL & 2R4, Loveland, CO
Posts: 222
Default

Acording to the facyory the pre punched rivet holes do not need to be deburred.

But a lot of builders debur anyway. Very much like primer arguments.

The few holes the builder drills do need to be debured.

The edges of sheets/parts do need to be deburred.

The kit is really amazing. The parts do fit. In fact if they don't you've done something wrong.

The aircraft easily accomodates two 220+ people both in weight, center of gravity, and size.

Visit a builder,otherwise it is just not believable.

-Dave
__________________
120500
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-12-2012, 05:04 PM
jersey jersey is offline
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wharton, Texas
Posts: 122
Default

To give you an idea, I'm a first time builder and my partner and I assembled the wings in 2 weekends. We then assembled and mounted the flaperons on the third weekend. Noticed I used the word assembled. Its like assembling a big erector set with good plans. By the way this forum is invaluable with people like Marty, Larry, Jetguy etc. that are always willing to help out.

The minor fabrication is actually fun.

The kit is so complete I actually ended up with some extra parts...

Gary E
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-12-2012, 05:21 PM
skydiverlv skydiverlv is online now
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: kansas
Posts: 330
Default

Dont forget the fiberglassing of the canopy leading edge. Dont really know how difficult it is because I have yet to begin that task. Kinda dreading it too. That will happen this fall.
__________________

Larry Vandegrift
ULPower 260is
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-12-2012, 05:39 PM
John@JohnKean.com's Avatar
John@JohnKean.com John@JohnKean.com is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Grosse Pointe Woods, MI
Posts: 13
Default

If you want to get a good feel for the construction of a RV-12, go to www.HomebuiltHELP.com. They have a number of well documented
DVD's that demonstrate the building of the RV-12. I used them for building my RV-12 and between the DVD's and this forum all my question were answered.
__________________
John Kean
RV-12 - Built and Flying
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-12-2012, 05:56 PM
Mike S's Avatar
Mike S Mike S is offline
Senior Curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
Posts: 15,420
Default Welcome to VAF!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMorden View Post
Hey all...

I'm a first time builder,
Andy, welcome to VAF

Good to have you aboard.
__________________
Mike Starkey
VAF 909

Rv-10, N210LM.

Flying as of 12/4/2010

Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011

Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.

"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-12-2012, 06:34 PM
MrMorden MrMorden is offline
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Athens, GA`
Posts: 22
Default

Thanks for all the great information. Wings in two weekends? I was about to order my Sonex wings and figuring on 200 hours or more.

I think the last straw with the Sonex was when I looked at the nosewheel strut and saw that the fork only has one side drilled for the axle. I figured it was a factory mistake...nope, I have to drill ONE side of the fork. I mean...really?!?

So some more questions:

1). One of the things that attracted me to the Sonex is the strength of the airframe, rated at +6/-3g...not because I want to do a lot of aerobatics, more just for the extra margins. How strong is the RV-12 airframe? What are the weakest parts. Also, what is the Vne?

2) the Sonex has no solid rivets, except in the wing spars I have not done yet. I know the RV uses quite a few of them...how hard is working the solid rivets vs the blind rivets? Are the blind rivets aluminum or stainless steel (all the Sonex rivets are SS).

3) The Sonex uses 6061-T6 aluminum, whereas the RV uses 2024 alclad (I think). I'm used to sanding out scratches and nicks that happen inevitably from handling in the shop...how do you deal with this with alclad?

4) does the canopy come ready to install, or does it need trimming?

Thanks again for all the quick and helpful information!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-12-2012, 06:36 PM
tim walter tim walter is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: san rafael
Posts: 110
Default easy build

The Rv-12 is an extremely easy build
it's more of an assembly than a build really.

The factory pre drilled cut and shaped parts are of excellent quality and fit together beautifully.
Like someone here said already, if the parts are not lining up, then you have them the wrong way around, it's pretty foolproof.

There are a few, and I mean REALLY few, holes that need to be matched drilled, I assume for the 51% rule.
It's quite odd, you often get a piece with hundreds of holes pre drilled and you just cleco it together then there's 4 holes they have you "match drill" for no other reason I can think of than the 51% rule.
it's really trivial, and honestly a bit silly, obviously originating in some government rule.

There's a handful, really not many at all, maybe 8 or so bits that you fabricate from angle stock, again, totally trivial to meet the 51% rules.

It's a fantastic quality kit. Like I said, an assembly more than a build.
in fact I wish there was more fabrication, I actually enjoy it, but I feel your pain, I think in fact if I had to fabricate everything I would be overwhelmed too,

The longerons that people complain about are really not hard at all, I think it's just that the rest of the kit is so easy, that it just seems hard to make the longerons because that's just about the only place there's any real fabrication work to do !.

I have not done the canopy fairing yet, but I expect that only to be a problem because it's the only place on the kit that requires any fiberglass work, and so that will be new skills to learn.
And if that's daunting, then you can buy a prebuilt fairing anyway.

Vans will sell you a pre-built leak tested fuel tank if you want too.

I can't imagine an easier build than the -12.

Deburring? yes, edges must be deburred, especially the inside of the lightening holes of the wing ribs and any holes you drill (but there's really not that many).

Get a 1" scotchbrite on a drill or angle grinder and just do it.
it's not that bad, it does take a bit of time, but again, it just seems like this is the worst bit because the rest of the build is just cleco it together and bang the rivets in.
Even the riveting is trivial, nearly all rivets are the blind pop rivets, and you can use a pneumatic puller, it's childsplay.

There are some squeezed rivets, but nothing over -4 sized and no rivet needs to be set with a rivet gun, all you need is a 3" squeezer.

I do deburr all holes, but I've been told that you really don't need to deburr the holes from the factory if they are going to get a rivet.
it's really not hard or even that time consuming with an electric screwdriver and deburr bit (I like the one flute ones from Cleveland)

No jigs to build, no incidence angles to set, no plumb bobs, everything just fits together and gets secured with fasteners.
Just a few match drilled holes and a few holes final drilled (opened up to final size) and some countersinking and a handful of brackets fabricated from angle stock.
__________________
Tim Walter
KDVO
http://rv-12-tim-walter.blogspot.com
kit# 120528
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:45 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.