Less intense formation clinics?

[Buggsy2]

Do they have formation clinics that are less intense? For training pilots who might want to fly somewhere with a couple of buddies in a looser formation. These clinics sound fun and demanding, but for instance I intend to install a vernier throttle and these clinics don't permit that (I think). Basically just looking to get trained in safe but informal formation flying.

[RV6_flyer]

Originally Posted by Buggsy2

Do they have formation clinics that are less intense? For training pilots who might want to fly somewhere with a couple of buddies in a looser formation. These clinics sound fun and demanding, but for instance I intend to install a vernier throttle and these clinics don't permit that (I think). Basically just looking to get trained in safe but informal formation flying.

Formation flying is not for everyone.

Correct vernier throttles are NOT allowed. There is no such thing as formation that is not intense.

All formation flying is serious and intense just like IFR. Formation flying is like IFR in that everything done is done for a reason. A lot of items are standardized and everyone does it the same way for the same reason. Safety. If must be done correctly else the safety goes away.

Formation flying is just like IFR. You are either in all the way or else you are out.

[fehdxl]

Originally Posted by Buggsy2

Do they have formation clinics that are less intense? For training pilots who might want to fly somewhere with a couple of buddies in a looser formation. These clinics sound fun and demanding, but for instance I intend to install a vernier throttle and these clinics don't permit that (I think). Basically just looking to get trained in safe but informal formation flying.

Yes and no. We just had a formation clinic in Kansas City last weekend. Limited to 2-ship formations and basic maneuvers. I took a guy who had never flown formation before and in a weekend he's able to takeoff and land on the wing plus fly route...enough to participate in Bonanza's to Oshkosh http://www.b2osh.org. Sure, not an RV, and we didn't do many maneuvers, but sounds a lot like what you'd be interested in. I also know of a person who will provide one on one formation training.

I say formation is akin to aerobatics...sure you can teach yourself, but it's a lot safer to have someone show you at least the basics first.

-Jim

P.S. Intense is a rather subjective adjective with a wide range of values. One can fly formation with heightened senses, but not be intense. At least IMHO.

[Buggsy2]

Originally Posted by RV6_flyer

There is no such thing as formation that is not intense. All formation flying is serious and intense just like IFR.

I hear you but offer these thoughts, not to argue, just another point of view.

Like many pilots I've done informal (untrained) "formation" flying with other untrained pilots. 3 of us at most, straight and level for the most part. Or if just 2 of us, maybe "formation" takeoff, climb, and cruise. Loose formation to be sure. Not really safe to be sure. Not really intense as I imagine the closer and larger flights are, but not relaxed either.

Though I've done this I don't like it because it IS untrained, and just stupid. I'd like to do it properly, with some training, with others who are trained. But I'm not interested in the closer and larger formation flying.

Comparing to IFR is interesting. I don't have the IFR training either. Indeed as practiced now IFR training and certification is all or none. But is that necessary? What about a "relaxed" IFR certificate to accommodate the glass panels and their view-ahead displays? Only for private (non-commercial) use. Only 1 passenger...or none perhaps. Only departures. Or if arrivals are allowed, minimum ceiling allowed is 1000 or 1500 feet AGL. This sort of IFR-lite would be useful in California, where there is often a stratus layer on the coast.

The point being that formation flying, like IFR flying, could be done in more- and less-demanding regimes....kinda like the private pilot vs. the commercial pilot vs. the ATP pilot standards.

Originally Posted by fehdxl

Yes and no. We just had a formation clinic in Kansas City last weekend. Limited to 2-ship formations and basic maneuvers. I took a guy who had never flown formation before and in a weekend he's able to takeoff and land on the wing plus fly route...enough to participate in Bonanza's to Oshkosh http://www.b2osh.org. Sure, not an RV, and we didn't do many maneuvers, but sounds a lot like what you'd be interested in. I also know of a person who will provide one on one formation training.

Seems just what I'm interested in. Where can I get more info?

[flyinga]

"Relaxed IFR"??? No such thing. No matter how relaxed you want to be you are still sharing the airspace with others.

[Louise Hose]

I took one of the West Coast RV Formation Clinics several years ago and it was one of the most useful things I ever did. But, I wasn't attracted to formation flying and haven't pursued group formation flying. I'm not fully "in". However, the disciplined training was fantastic and gave me the tools to confidently do two-ship and photo shots. It opened up many opportunities for me (e.g., professional air-to-air photo missions, escorting the RV-1). I wouldn't do some of the activities you mentioned without that disciplined training. I don't do at least one of them even with training.

I also went through the full IFR training, mostly for So Cal marine layer and similiar light uses. I wouldn't have it any other way. When something goes wrong, I want to be over-trained, not squeaking by.

I would like to think that I'm not sharing the skies with people who want to get by with the minimum training and competence.

[Capflyer]

I understand what you are asking but here is my take on anything regarding flying and flight training. If you only train to mediocrity then you'll never be more than mediocre and that is not place to be when in formation. Train to perfection and you may not be perfect, none of us are, but at least you'll be safe and have an understanding. Standardization is everything when flying in close proximity to another aircraft. Your life depends on it.

It is certainly acceptable to train in a two ship, four ship being better. No one will force you to do anything you are uncomfortable with at a clinic especially the mass formation. This way you can learn and practice the basics then do with them later as you feel comfortable with.

As said by others, you are either "in" or you are "out".

[N520TX]

Why not go to a clinic anyway ? The ground school portion is where you will pick up the overall picture of what is in store - do your homework and read the material prior to day one. As a complete newbie, you will be flying in an experienced safety pilots ride for the first flight. Nothing is stopping you from taking 3 or even 4 rides in the right/back seat of someone that's got a lot of experience. You will learn a lot. You might even learn this is something that you'd really like to do - I dare you not to get hooked.

[JonJay]

I agree that you are either In, or Out.
The most dangerous formation flying in my opinion is the loose formation, the type that is often done casually. I feel much safer in a tight disciplined formation.
The main reason loose, or enroute, formations are so dangerous are the high closure rates that can occur when distracted. It is easy to get distracted when enroute and it does not take a lot of angle to start closing rapidly on other aircraft near you.
The FFI standard for enroute formation is 4-8 ship width spacing, which is not very far, which is good. This is treated as a position and must be maintained as such. The farther you are out enroute, the higher the closure rate will be if you start to drift towards another aircraft.

[rvmills]

Buggsy,

I do think I understand where you're coming from. I sense you feel you may want to fly formation, and would want to do it safely and correctly, but may not want to pursue it to the degree us formation addicts do.

I admire your desire to seek training to do it right. Some really smart formation guys have chimed in here, and they have good advice. Though formation flying is not something to approach casually, it can be taught in a more informal environment than a clinic. Informal does not mean casual though, and the same attitude and willingness to learn must be brought to the briefing room and the flight. Their is an inherent intensity required to safely fly formation, but a good instructor can tailor training to your needs, teach you how to do it well, and help you develop the skills and mindset to fly formation safely...and they are skills that apply equally to air shows and $100 burger runs with the buds. You may not be as tight, and you may not maneuver aggressively, but formation is formation, and should be always approached with the same attitude. It's also a skill that deteriorates, and needs to be practiced to stay safe doing it.

Since you are in California, many of the West Coast Raven pilots and participants in the recent clinic are near you, and if you are interested in training outside the clinic, please do contact us. We did have an RV-9 at the 2012 clinic, and he had a great time in his demo flight and some 2-ship training.

The vernier throttle will keep you out of the clinic, and will be a challenge to overcome in your formation flying. I know the Bo guys have them, but they also have freakishly strong and hypertrophied thumbs (I'm kidding...but it's a pain for sure!). So you might want to consider all sides of that decision.

Give us a holler if you want to do some training. We're all about doing this safely (and as with IFR, one goal is to achieve a level of relaxation...relaxed intensity, focus and concentration...it can be done...and is fun!)

Cheers,
Bob