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04-21-2012, 02:10 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Huskerland, USA
Posts: 5,862
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dicel87
I think that is part of the Viking Engines business model - they use a Honda Fit engine and adapt it to use in small airplanes. There is at least one flying RV-12 (and some other designs) using this engine and it is certainly less expensive than comparable HP engines. But...expense is only one factor in the decision making process.
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You get what you pay for. 
__________________
RV-7 : In the hangar
RV-10 : In the hangar
RV-12 : Built and sold
RV-44 : 4 place helicopter on order.
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04-21-2012, 09:05 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: La Center,wa
Posts: 210
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Outboards are an interesting comparison, however, they when you buy one, you are not only buying the powerhead, but also the gear train, shifting mechanism, case both upper and lower, prop, etc. It would be comparable to the engine, prop, cowling, accessories, mounting, etc. for an airplane. Not exactly apples to apples.
Tim
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04-21-2012, 09:13 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 3,932
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geico266
You get what you pay for. 
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And that attitude has done more to kill the alternative engine market than any liability or production volume concerns. If Honda made a 180HP engine that could be dropped into an RV as a Lycoming replacement, anyone familiar with Hondas would buy one in a heartbeat.
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Rob Prior
1996 RV-6 "Tweety" C-FRBP (formerly N196RV)
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04-21-2012, 09:40 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Seattle, wa
Posts: 679
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mile High Relic
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And that is also the reason Continential sold their company to the Chinese, Technify Motors...... Who in this country would want to produce anything, sell anything, provide any service to anyone, not if but when every past, present, and future profit will be wiped out in a lawsuit.
The writing is on the wall. Lycoming will be next.
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04-22-2012, 05:13 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Stuart, FL /Hartford, CT/Virgin Gorda,BVI
Posts: 3,122
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my first engine went about 400,000 miles!!!!!! my plane is still worth what i payed for it with the new engine installed. can you say that about your car, truck, boat, rv[motorhome], ect.
do you think it is still not worth $25K?
we are so lucky to do what we do. the price of flying is PRICELESS!!!!
my view is a bit different than most.
every 1,000 hrs my plane is payed for by my reasoning. feel better now about paying $25K for that piece of expensive metal?
to summarize, why they cost so much, they last and are made of exotic materials.
__________________
TURBO YES =VAF= Payed Jan2019
Ed D'Arcy
RV6-A 5,200+ hrs, R-44 1,600 hrs, Helicycle 320 hrs, gyro sold,35,000 miles flown in 2015 
Stuart, Fl / S WINDSOR,Ct / Virgin Gorda, BVI - under major repair from hurricane damage
VAF #840 EAA AOPA FAC FABA QB SPA
addicted pickle ball player
https://i.postimg.cc/tn3h4svg/IMG-3101.jpg
Last edited by turbo : 04-22-2012 at 05:55 AM.
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04-22-2012, 10:27 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Federal Way, Wa
Posts: 264
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It all about volume
The old comparison between commercial airlpanes and cars is the real driver. With airplanes, they build thousands of planes with millions of parts. With cars, they build millions of cars with thousands of parts.
To deliver 300,000 engines a year (Ford Taurus in 2003) for a single product line, about one every 2 seconds, you spend $100M+ setting up a highly automated engine production line to make the engine for less than $2K (I'm guessing).
How many 360's were delivered last year, 1000?
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Brice
RV-9A 90897 FLYING
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04-22-2012, 10:31 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: San Mateo, CA
Posts: 1,419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BJohnson
The old comparison between commercial airlpanes and cars is the real driver. With airplanes, they build thousands of planes with millions of parts. With cars, they build millions of cars with thousands of parts.
To deliver 300,000 engines a year (Ford Taurus in 2003) for a single product line, about one every 2 seconds, you spend $100M+ setting up a highly automated engine production line to make the engine for less than $2K (I'm guessing).
How many 360's were delivered last year, 1000?
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Well said. Best post of the thread! 
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04-25-2012, 08:00 PM
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Brisbane Qld. Aust.
Posts: 2,271
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Another good post!
I may ruffle feathers again, but here goes! Aviation is not a cheap hobby. If you can't afford it, find another hobby. It is that simple. You can minimise some expenses, but not eliminate them.
Many of the auto conversions I know of have cost more than the option of buying an overhauled second hand engine, and when all the time and effort is taken into account, and missed amounts of accounting, probably a new one.
It is what it is! (My favourite saying too)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RV7Ron
This is fresh in my mind since I just ordered my engine last week. To me, two inter-related issues keep costs high--low volume and no competition.
I dont believe the technology in an A/C engine is vastly more expensive than an automotive engine. We're not talking about anything exotic here. How many 4 cylinder, internally combusted, 200hp automotive engines cost $30,000?? None (unless its custom). So, what do the automotive guys have going for them?...HUGE volumes (and huge demand), which makes all the difference getting mfg costs down.
Next question, why dont auto engine manufacturers get involved and eat Lycoming's lunch on price (because they could)...answer, no market, why would they? It makes no business sense for them to play in this market. Remember, less than one half of one percent of the adult population in the US is a licensed pilot...we are a very small group.
Let me tell you, since like I said I recently wrote that check, it really sucks to pay that kind of money for an engine...but, unfortunately, it is what it is...we dont have any options unless you want to go the 'auto conversion' route...which isnt for me.
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04-25-2012, 09:43 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,516
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Good Investment!
Good investments aren't cheap and I do share Turbos point of view.
Take my IO-540 for example, bought and paid for a little over a year ago.
The cost for the same engine is already more than 10% higher than it was a year ago. Can't say the same thing for my other investments.
You will enhance the value of your airplane by installing an expensive Lycoming engine.
As to why they are expensive, monopoly, low production numbers, liability.
One of those reasons we can't do much about but the other 2 are self inflicted by our overzealous desire to place blame for anything and everything on someone else.
__________________
Ernst Freitag
RV-8 finished (sold)
RV-10 Flyer 600 plus hours
Running on E10 mogas
Don't believe everything you know.
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04-25-2012, 10:08 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 5,766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV10inOz
Another good post!
Many of the auto conversions I know of have cost more than the option of buying an overhauled second hand engine, and when all the time and effort is taken into account, and missed amounts of accounting, probably a new one.
It is what it is! (My favourite saying too) 
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On the other side of the coin, having been involved in the auto engined world for over 15 years, I have seen plenty that are much cheaper to acquire, operate and overhaul than traditional engines. The money saved on acquisition, invested and then compounded over time is huge- $40K in my case that I have in the bank by not buying a new Lycoming at the time.
If done right and it works properly, it is a viable way to go for some people.
Liability is the big killer here IMO which keeps traditional engine prices so high. The volumes are high enough to drop unit pricing down to no more than double an auto engine core with the current casting and CNC processes used. There is nothing high tech or expensive in a Lycoming compared to a typical modern car engine. The paper trail adds only minimal costs if done efficiently.
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