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  #31  
Old 04-21-2012, 02:10 AM
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Geico266 Geico266 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dicel87 View Post
I think that is part of the Viking Engines business model - they use a Honda Fit engine and adapt it to use in small airplanes. There is at least one flying RV-12 (and some other designs) using this engine and it is certainly less expensive than comparable HP engines. But...expense is only one factor in the decision making process.
You get what you pay for.
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  #32  
Old 04-21-2012, 09:05 AM
tjo tjo is offline
 
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Outboards are an interesting comparison, however, they when you buy one, you are not only buying the powerhead, but also the gear train, shifting mechanism, case both upper and lower, prop, etc. It would be comparable to the engine, prop, cowling, accessories, mounting, etc. for an airplane. Not exactly apples to apples.

Tim
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  #33  
Old 04-21-2012, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Geico266 View Post
You get what you pay for.
And that attitude has done more to kill the alternative engine market than any liability or production volume concerns. If Honda made a 180HP engine that could be dropped into an RV as a Lycoming replacement, anyone familiar with Hondas would buy one in a heartbeat.
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  #34  
Old 04-21-2012, 09:40 AM
asav8tor asav8tor is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mile High Relic View Post
It is liability run amok.

In the case noted in the article below, the NTSB found that the engine was NOT at fault. The jury awarded the plaintiffs 89 million of Lycoming's money. That's a lot of engines.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stor...rash-suit.html
And that is also the reason Continential sold their company to the Chinese, Technify Motors...... Who in this country would want to produce anything, sell anything, provide any service to anyone, not if but when every past, present, and future profit will be wiped out in a lawsuit.

The writing is on the wall. Lycoming will be next.
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  #35  
Old 04-22-2012, 05:13 AM
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my first engine went about 400,000 miles!!!!!! my plane is still worth what i payed for it with the new engine installed. can you say that about your car, truck, boat, rv[motorhome], ect.

do you think it is still not worth $25K?

we are so lucky to do what we do. the price of flying is PRICELESS!!!!

my view is a bit different than most.

every 1,000 hrs my plane is payed for by my reasoning. feel better now about paying $25K for that piece of expensive metal?

to summarize, why they cost so much, they last and are made of exotic materials.
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Last edited by turbo : 04-22-2012 at 05:55 AM.
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  #36  
Old 04-22-2012, 10:27 AM
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BJohnson BJohnson is offline
 
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Default It all about volume

The old comparison between commercial airlpanes and cars is the real driver. With airplanes, they build thousands of planes with millions of parts. With cars, they build millions of cars with thousands of parts.

To deliver 300,000 engines a year (Ford Taurus in 2003) for a single product line, about one every 2 seconds, you spend $100M+ setting up a highly automated engine production line to make the engine for less than $2K (I'm guessing).

How many 360's were delivered last year, 1000?
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  #37  
Old 04-22-2012, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BJohnson View Post
The old comparison between commercial airlpanes and cars is the real driver. With airplanes, they build thousands of planes with millions of parts. With cars, they build millions of cars with thousands of parts.

To deliver 300,000 engines a year (Ford Taurus in 2003) for a single product line, about one every 2 seconds, you spend $100M+ setting up a highly automated engine production line to make the engine for less than $2K (I'm guessing).

How many 360's were delivered last year, 1000?
Well said. Best post of the thread!
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  #38  
Old 04-25-2012, 08:00 PM
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RV10inOz RV10inOz is offline
 
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Another good post!

I may ruffle feathers again, but here goes! Aviation is not a cheap hobby. If you can't afford it, find another hobby. It is that simple. You can minimise some expenses, but not eliminate them.

Many of the auto conversions I know of have cost more than the option of buying an overhauled second hand engine, and when all the time and effort is taken into account, and missed amounts of accounting, probably a new one.

It is what it is! (My favourite saying too)


Quote:
Originally Posted by RV7Ron View Post
This is fresh in my mind since I just ordered my engine last week. To me, two inter-related issues keep costs high--low volume and no competition.

I dont believe the technology in an A/C engine is vastly more expensive than an automotive engine. We're not talking about anything exotic here. How many 4 cylinder, internally combusted, 200hp automotive engines cost $30,000?? None (unless its custom). So, what do the automotive guys have going for them?...HUGE volumes (and huge demand), which makes all the difference getting mfg costs down.

Next question, why dont auto engine manufacturers get involved and eat Lycoming's lunch on price (because they could)...answer, no market, why would they? It makes no business sense for them to play in this market. Remember, less than one half of one percent of the adult population in the US is a licensed pilot...we are a very small group.

Let me tell you, since like I said I recently wrote that check, it really sucks to pay that kind of money for an engine...but, unfortunately, it is what it is...we dont have any options unless you want to go the 'auto conversion' route...which isnt for me.
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  #39  
Old 04-25-2012, 09:43 PM
N427EF N427EF is offline
 
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Default Good Investment!

Good investments aren't cheap and I do share Turbos point of view.
Take my IO-540 for example, bought and paid for a little over a year ago.
The cost for the same engine is already more than 10% higher than it was a year ago. Can't say the same thing for my other investments.
You will enhance the value of your airplane by installing an expensive Lycoming engine.
As to why they are expensive, monopoly, low production numbers, liability.
One of those reasons we can't do much about but the other 2 are self inflicted by our overzealous desire to place blame for anything and everything on someone else.
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  #40  
Old 04-25-2012, 10:08 PM
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rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV10inOz View Post
Another good post!

Many of the auto conversions I know of have cost more than the option of buying an overhauled second hand engine, and when all the time and effort is taken into account, and missed amounts of accounting, probably a new one.

It is what it is! (My favourite saying too)
On the other side of the coin, having been involved in the auto engined world for over 15 years, I have seen plenty that are much cheaper to acquire, operate and overhaul than traditional engines. The money saved on acquisition, invested and then compounded over time is huge- $40K in my case that I have in the bank by not buying a new Lycoming at the time.

If done right and it works properly, it is a viable way to go for some people.

Liability is the big killer here IMO which keeps traditional engine prices so high. The volumes are high enough to drop unit pricing down to no more than double an auto engine core with the current casting and CNC processes used. There is nothing high tech or expensive in a Lycoming compared to a typical modern car engine. The paper trail adds only minimal costs if done efficiently.
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