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  #11  
Old 04-20-2012, 12:23 AM
Sig600 Sig600 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BHunt View Post
That's about it... Why?
Free market. Can you find a cheaper product that provides the same performance/reliability?
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  #12  
Old 04-20-2012, 05:00 AM
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pierre smith pierre smith is offline
 
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Location: Louisville, Ga
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Default Insurance.

I used to sell Cessna Agwagons and agtrucks for a Cessna dealer and the factory rep told us that product liability insurance was 1/3 the cost of a new airplane

Best,
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  #13  
Old 04-20-2012, 05:06 AM
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rbibb rbibb is offline
 
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I used to own a machine shop. We made parts in small volume (anywhere from 1-500 depending on what it was) for medical instrument and military markets. When you saw some of the parts you would probably think "Why does that piece of machined aluminum (usually 6061) cost $100 a piece? Well when you account for the time to set up the machine to make them, the material, the cost to get it finished (maybe a three or four step process with clearing, alodining and/or anodizing, primer, paint) and realize that at each step in the process the cost of "setup" to do a small lot of 100 pieces was almost equal to the actual cost to perform the process and that the capital investment in machinery to be able to make the part in the first place it was little wonder the part cost so much. The manufacturing term is low-volume, high-mix in terms of parts count/volume in end product. All with serious documentation at each step (traceability) as well as serious QC at each step. Frankly aircraft engines are such low volume compared to any frame of reference we might have (cars, lawn mowers, washing machines) most people just don't think about exactly what goes into making one. Add in liabiiity, rising overhead costs (health care), and volatile market and they end up costing what they cost....

I always thought if some derivative of auto engine could be developed that could leverage some of the volume production of some key parts that would help but I doubt any major engine manufacturer would want the liability exposure given tiny incremental market GA represents.

Its all about business economics. Nobody is getting rich on GA based on price gouging.
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  #14  
Old 04-20-2012, 07:10 AM
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Snowflake Snowflake is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbibb View Post
Its all about business economics. Nobody is getting rich on GA based on price gouging.
Just Garmin and Jeppesen, it seems...
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  #15  
Old 04-20-2012, 08:00 AM
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jdeas jdeas is offline
 
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Default Certification overhead

Paper work must be a large part of it. With CNC mills and new processes for metal work the actual cost of the parts must be going down.
Add lawyers, insurance and the ability to track any and all parts down to the 'responsible' party really takes time and money!

I.E. Shroud tube lock plate $1.51 each , Manufacturer's Certification for the part $10.00
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Last edited by jdeas : 04-20-2012 at 08:02 AM.
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  #16  
Old 04-20-2012, 08:54 AM
RVJeff RVJeff is offline
 
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Location: Pompano Beach, FL
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Default Product Liability is my vote

I am with the last few posters on this subject. The former machine shop guy above put it very eloquently. Product liability has to be tops in my book. Lycoming design has been around for a very long time and proven. Should a new single engine Cessna 182 be pushing $300K? I don't think so, but what do I know! That's why I went the "some assembly required" route with the RV.

I probably still have some liver scaring from consoling myself with the cheer of DRINK after writing that check to Superior Air Parts for my XP360 fire breathing engine. But she's a beauty and she works great. Yea, I wish they were cheaper too guys. What's a father to do?

Jeff Liebman
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  #17  
Old 04-20-2012, 09:24 AM
Mile High Relic Mile High Relic is offline
 
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Location: Denver area
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Default Liability

It is liability run amok.

In the case noted in the article below, the NTSB found that the engine was NOT at fault. The jury awarded the plaintiffs 89 million of Lycoming's money. That's a lot of engines.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stor...rash-suit.html
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  #18  
Old 04-20-2012, 09:38 AM
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RV7Ron RV7Ron is offline
 
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This is fresh in my mind since I just ordered my engine last week. To me, two inter-related issues keep costs high--low volume and no competition.

I dont believe the technology in an A/C engine is vastly more expensive than an automotive engine. We're not talking about anything exotic here. How many 4 cylinder, internally combusted, 200hp automotive engines cost $30,000?? None (unless its custom). So, what do the automotive guys have going for them?...HUGE volumes (and huge demand), which makes all the difference getting mfg costs down.

Next question, why dont auto engine manufacturers get involved and eat Lycoming's lunch on price (because they could)...answer, no market, why would they? It makes no business sense for them to play in this market. Remember, less than one half of one percent of the adult population in the US is a licensed pilot...we are a very small group.

Let me tell you, since like I said I recently wrote that check, it really sucks to pay that kind of money for an engine...but, unfortunately, it is what it is...we dont have any options unless you want to go the 'auto conversion' route...which isnt for me.
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  #19  
Old 04-20-2012, 09:53 AM
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CharlieWaffles CharlieWaffles is offline
 
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This is an interesting topic and raised awareness of something I talked to my wife about.

I told her, I love this industry and flying. If for some reason I were to die while flying, please don't hire a lawyer and sue everyone in the world. If there is LEGITIMATE cause to be concerned someone was at fault (known issue, NTSB ruling, etc..) then that is one thing. But don't go out and sue the guy who made some bolt and put him out of business because you THINK that is what killed me.

I told her I don't want to contribute to the growing liability issues with aviation. I know none of us are required to sign liability waivers to fly in this field of sport we love, but perhaps if more people sat down with their families and had a frank discussions, there would be real reform.

The lawyers aren't suing these companies for their own good, someone is asking or allowing them to do this. This societal concept of blame someone and sue them when something goes bad, no matter how remotely connected, is crazy.

Well, that's just my opinion.
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  #20  
Old 04-20-2012, 10:05 AM
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kevinh kevinh is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieWaffles View Post
I told her, I love this industry and flying. If for some reason I were to die while flying, please don't hire a lawyer and sue everyone in the world. If there is LEGITIMATE cause to be concerned someone was at fault (known issue, NTSB ruling, etc..) then that is one thing. But don't go out and sue the guy who made some bolt and put him out of business because you THINK that is what killed me.
The sad thing is even your wife probably can't stop this. Your health/life insurance probably has a clause in your contract giving them the right of subrogation. They may use that right to sue on your behalf even if you do not want them to (to reimburse themselves for the money paid to you).

A few months ago a local paragliding pilot was hiking (not even flying) through a county park (that allows paragliding) and through a freak event got attacked and seriously injured by a cow. His medical insurance paid to fix him up, but then against his wishes sued the county claiming they had allowed that cow to be there.
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