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  #41  
Old 03-11-2012, 02:09 PM
WAM120RV WAM120RV is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Coventry. England
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Default Who made assertions about RV's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Lee View Post
An assertion was made that suggested that there are many RV fatalities resulting from flying at over gross weight. issue.

So, where exactly did you see an assertion like this in my post. This is what I said, 'I am extremely uncomfortable reading about people arbitrarily upping their gross weight from the designers limits. How many accident reports have I read where this has been done with fatal results....... I have lost count?

No where are RV's mentioned, and I have made the point quite clearly that I was referring to all accidents where being over gross was a factor.

BTW I can count past ten, we use our toes as well in England.

The other thing that is worrying about this is the assumption that all RV 6's are built to the same standard. Some might be perfect and I bet a lot are, but I have seen some with questionable build quality that I would not fly in.
So, assertions that 6 have Super strong wings may or not be true.

Of course Van does not want to expose himself to more liability by upping the gross.......... do you want to expose yourself to it by upping it against the designers recommendations?????

For those people bored of this topic as it has been discussed in the past remember what started this thread, someone asking whether it was safe to fly over gross. Who, on this thread has carried out a detailed analysis of the build quality of his aeroplane and can say yes?

In my view the only sensible answer you can give is to refer him back to the designers gross figure who has no doubt factored into the safely margin the possibily of questionable build quality.
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In completion stage of Loehle P5151
Built and now Flying G.BVLR Vans RV4
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Rebuilt G BVTN Kitfox
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Riveted wings on Glastar G.LEZZ Now (G. SKUA)
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  #42  
Old 03-11-2012, 02:13 PM
WAM120RV WAM120RV is offline
 
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Default 140 lbs

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Originally Posted by Ron Lee View Post
A better solution would be passengers that weight less than 140 pounds, have longer hair than guys and look better.
Now this is a more sensible proposal!!! But i would lower that figure to 112 to 120 lbs as 140 is over my personal gross weight limit.
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Steve Arnold
England

In completion stage of Loehle P5151
Built and now Flying G.BVLR Vans RV4
Rebuilt G.BDBD Tailwind
Rebuilt G BVTN Kitfox
Built G CDCD RV9A with WAM120
Riveted wings on Glastar G.LEZZ Now (G. SKUA)
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  #43  
Old 03-11-2012, 04:04 PM
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RVG8tor RVG8tor is offline
 
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Default Build quality

Quote:
Originally Posted by WAM120RV View Post
....The other thing that is worrying about this is the assumption that all RV 6's are built to the same standard. Some might be perfect and I bet a lot are, but I have seen some with questionable build quality that I would not fly in....

Now you make a good point, in that the build quality might not let the airplane standup to even Van's recommended number. I am not certain but I still believe this is left up to the builder. As far as liability would you recommend certifying with a gross less than Van's published number to protect the builder from some level of liability?

I still say the only way to get make an educated estimate as to what gross weight should be if you want it different from what Van's has published is to have the engineer state the assumptions made to come up with the number in the first place. Only then can we know what level of safety is being compromised by using a higher gross weight.


PS. When you see poor build quality do you politely let the builder know, I hope so?
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  #44  
Old 03-11-2012, 04:48 PM
WAM120RV WAM120RV is offline
 
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Location: Coventry. England
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Default Build quality

In the Uk we have a system of build inspection. If the Inspector does his job right good quality work is pretty much ensured........but, unfortunately there is always a but, sometimes they don't, or sometimes builders may hide mistakes.
I have a very good relationship with my inspector and have been with him on other inspections and seen people try to put one over on him.

The only country I know that goes further than this is Germany where they require proof loading of each airframe. In that case I think you can be pretty sure you have a strong aeroplane build to a good standard. Possibly other countries do this as well.

I think you know something of my personality from what I have written here. I care about other people, I spent most of my life serving my country as a Police Officer. So of course if someone is putting themselves or others at risk I will speak up, hopefully without upsetting anyone.

That is why I said I was troubled by people arbitrarily upping the gross weight, either in a written document or by simply overloading it for any particular flight. It does not matter whether its an RV/Kitfox/ Cessna....... whatever.......... the performance will be affected by adding more weight.


Take my RV9 solo with full tanks.......... 1300 fpm climb. At gross that drops to about 650. If I were to add in another 200lbs I would probably be reliant on the curvature of the earth to get me off the ground!!

I had flight with my daughter in a motor glider, and there were thunder storms developing about 40 miles away. The down draughts were so strong that even at full climb power we were going down fast, so I landed at a disused RAF base. OK its unlikely in an RV with their excess of power...... but, load it over gross and your into those margins of safety.

I don't mean to be rude to anyone but bottom line is rather than push the limits on my aeroplane I would ask an overweight friend to shed a more than few pounds before I took them up, or just say no. I feel sorry for those guys who are 250lbs plus of muscle, but one of the reasons I keep my weight down is because the aeroplane flies better.

I think you will find that Dave Anders also shed body weight before doing his record breaking CAFE flight. Well thats what I read and if he did respect and kudos goes to him!!

In the UK the gross weight is set by the Light Aircraft Association. Because RV's are strong and have a good record our Engineers have never to my knowledge sought to reduce the gross weight from that recommended by Vans. Dispensation was given for the round the world RV4 flight when it landed in the UK, which flew over gross.

They have reduced gross weight with other designs so this should show you how highly RV's are regarded in the UK.

Perhaps we should run a poll. Question 'Do you think its sensible to up the gross weight on your aeroplane based on the advice of someone you have never met, who has never assessed the structural integrity of your aeroplane, just because someone else has done it and so far gotten away with it?
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Steve Arnold
England

In completion stage of Loehle P5151
Built and now Flying G.BVLR Vans RV4
Rebuilt G.BDBD Tailwind
Rebuilt G BVTN Kitfox
Built G CDCD RV9A with WAM120
Riveted wings on Glastar G.LEZZ Now (G. SKUA)

Last edited by WAM120RV : 03-11-2012 at 05:14 PM.
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  #45  
Old 03-11-2012, 05:46 PM
Tom Martin Tom Martin is offline
 
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Location: Ontario, Canada
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Default

I try to build a light airplane, minimal interior etc, just because I feel every extra pound that is on my plane. Others have a different mission and I would say that the track record for heavy RVs has been pretty good. If this discussion is about risk, and absolutely following Van's recommendations regarding gross weight, then should that gospel not extend to alternate engines? The track record for alternate engines has been absolutely abysmal, if alternate engines were not allowed there would be many more people alive today then have ever been lost to heavy gross weights.
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  #46  
Old 03-11-2012, 05:50 PM
paul330 paul330 is offline
 
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Default

I agree with Steve's sentiments - maybe it's a trans-Atlantic thing.......

There is a "however", however. Without wishing to be rude about anyone's stature (I am no skinny-pants myself), I believe that weighing 350lbs gives far more scope for an early demise than crashing in an over-weight aircraft
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  #47  
Old 03-11-2012, 06:14 PM
sailvi767 sailvi767 is offline
 
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Location: Charlotte NC
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Default

I generally believe in following a manufacturers or designers recommendations. In the case of the RV6 however virtually every 360 powered airframe I looked at had the GW set at 1800 lbs. My understanding is that upping the gross weight is not arbitrary and the builder has to demonstrate and test the aircraft at those weights. The aircraft performs great at 1800 lb in all respects. I am very comfortable with that weight. I would guess there must be close to a 1000 RV6's with the 1800 lbs weight and I have yet to hear of a single issue.
You can abuse and miss load any aircraft. The RV4 accident mentioned in the thread was caused by a combination of many factors. CG was a much bigger factor then the gross weight. He was so far out of the limits for aerobatics both from a aircraft and pilot standpoint it simply has no relevance to operating a RV on a cross country flight.

George
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  #48  
Old 03-11-2012, 06:27 PM
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Ron Lee Ron Lee is offline
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WAM120RV View Post
So, where exactly did you see an assertion like this in my post. This is what I said, 'I am extremely uncomfortable reading about people arbitrarily upping their gross weight from the designers limits. How many accident reports have I read where this has been done with fatal results....... I have lost count?

No where are RV's mentioned, and I have made the point quite clearly that I was referring to all accidents where being over gross was a factor.
Steve, this thread is about raising the gross weight on RVs. This can be done on RVs by the builder. Maybe Cessna or Piper aircraft owners can raise their gross weight. I just do not know. The discussion is about RVs.

If you want to include people LOADING their aircraft above the gross weight, then let's discuss all pilot errors including the three at my airport where people damaged their aircraft due to weight, aircraft performance, and/or density altitude issues. Or lower performance aircraft that hit mountainous terrain due to performance/pilot issues.

But that has almost ZERO relevance to my RV due to its superior performance.

I do not operate mine outside of its original 1650 lb gross weight limit or CG limits. I have considered raising the gross weight but the compelling need to do so has not surfaced yet.
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  #49  
Old 03-11-2012, 06:29 PM
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L.Adamson L.Adamson is offline
 
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Location: KSLC
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WAM120RV View Post
Perhaps we should run a poll. Question 'Do you think its sensible to up the gross weight on your aeroplane based on the advice of someone you have never met, who has never assessed the structural integrity of your aeroplane, just because someone else has done it and so far gotten away with it?
Yes, we'll ask that question to a bunch of wannabe RV builders, who don't have an idea of what the **** has gone on before. That's about how legitimate and useful this poll would be.

As I have said before, and years before that.............these same questions come up every few years. Then we get the same repetitive answers from those who are only guessing with their "moral" high ground thinking. It's even got to the point of criticizing builders for upping the weight, and then daring to sell their aircraft to some unsuspecting buyer. And at the same time, you get potential buyers who are criticizing the builder for not upping the gross to start with.

As I said before, get someone from Van's who will actually condemn the 1850 gross weight on an RV6A, then we'll talk about it.

L.Adamson
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  #50  
Old 03-11-2012, 07:57 PM
nauga nauga is offline
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Hill View Post
I can only suggest "Yes" on the basis of:
  1. The Article above
  2. Recent eMails from the (current) Chief Engineer at Vans
The latter included very direct reference to the implications of exceeding Gross on an RV-4.
As one who increased the list gross weight of an RV-4 from 1500 to 1600 lb based on a *face to face* conversation with Van on the subject *and* requisite flight testing to substantiate it, I'd be interested in hearing about these implications.

Note that my aerobatic weight and CG envelope are unchanged.
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