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02-24-2012, 09:53 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Douglas Flat, CA
Posts: 589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerfTech
...I graduated top of my class at MIT with three degrees in mechanical engineering...
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Not that I put much emphasis on credentials, but just to clarify this point: When you say MIT, do you mean Massachusetts Institute of Technology?
Thanks, Bob K.
__________________
Bob Kuykendall
HP-24 kit sailplane
EAA Technical Counselor
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02-24-2012, 05:01 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 427
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I answered this question from Mike Starkey in another thread on this debate:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike S
If I use an electric motor, with an adjustable clutch set to slip at 100 lb/ft of torque on the output shaft, and then attach the 3" tool at the end of that shaft, how much torque will the end of the tool see????
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I can't see anywhere Mike's question was addressed, so let me repeat my answer here:
The nut will see absolutely no torque at all. Think about it or try it out to prove to yourself that it's true. I think this proves the correction multipler cannot be a constant.
Hope that helps.
--
Stephen
Last edited by fatherson : 02-24-2012 at 05:09 PM.
Reason: clarity
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02-24-2012, 07:10 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 121
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90 degrees
For the love of mary, put the thing on 90 degrees and be done with it! Or calibrate your elbow... seriously. Does anybody really torque spark plugs, an 3 bolts, brake backing plates or mag attach nuts?
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02-24-2012, 09:09 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,670
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I torque spark plugs every time. One stripped thread in the cylinder isn't worth it to me. Without a torque wrench, I tend to over-torque stuff, especially AN-3 stuff.
I really have to watch it!........ 
__________________
Pete Hunt, [San Diego] VAF #1069
RV-6, RV-6A, T-6G
ATP, CFII, A&P
2020 Donation+, Gladly Sent
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02-24-2012, 09:12 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Central IL
Posts: 5,516
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Sorry to do this, but . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatherson
I answered this question from Mike Starkey in another thread on this debate:
I can't see anywhere Mike's question was addressed, so let me repeat my answer here:
The nut will see absolutely no torque at all. Think about it or try it out to prove to yourself that it's true. I think this proves the correction multipler cannot be a constant.
Hope that helps.
--
Stephen
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Actually I was wondering when this could come up. There are two rules of statics, 1. summing forces about a point = zero 2. a pure moment can be located anywhere on the plane.
So . . . Mike's pure torque of 100 will result be resisted by an equal torque at the nut. There are no force couples involved. the distance is not relevant since there is no force couple involved.
OK, all ready to pull your hair out now?
Think about it . . . if you applied a pure torque to that wrench and it was not attached, what would happen - it would spin, right? So the reaction at the nut can NOT be zero and the real answer is it is equal to that applied.
For the extension - use the FAA and torque wrench book formula.
Why? Lets say the FAA is correct - the factor is not fixed at 0.8 . But I use the 0.8 anyway. The prop torque needs 60-70 ft-lb of torque. I usually use the middle number since i don't know which way my tool may be inaccurate. So let's use 65 ft-lb. If I use a 16.5 inch wrench ( my real number) and using the .8 factor, I will be actually 6.7% low, according to the FAA formula. What if my click wrench is 4% low? Then I am 10.7% low now, or only 58 ft-lb of real torque on the nut. That is 2 ft-lb below the low end of the range. Is that enough to worry? I don't know, so I will be using what my engineering training, experience, and the FAA formula tells me.
__________________
Bill
RV-7
Lord Kelvin:
“I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about,
and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you
cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge
is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind.”
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02-24-2012, 10:47 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 1,499
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It is after midnight...
I just had to see what all the huboob was about and clicked on this thread. I read every post to page 11. I said to my aching brain...let's skip to the last page and there I will find out if the length really does matter. Okay, I can sleep tonight since I have been flying behind my prop that was torqued with a 90 deg adapter. We used the same formula that is in AC43.13 in the military. I would hate to have to go back and recheck torques from 23 years ago. I am going to bed, my calibrated elbow is hurting too.
Now I figured out why Mike Starkey was recommending to a new builder "torque wrench how-to lessons" before starting his -10 emp. I was wondering what kind of crazy recommendation was that. 
__________________
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
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02-24-2012, 11:56 PM
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Senior Curmudgeon
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
Posts: 15,420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Gillispie
Now I figured out why Mike Starkey was recommending to a new builder "torque wrench how-to lessons" before starting his -10 emp. I was wondering what kind of crazy recommendation was that. 
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That recommendation was to help him sleep.
__________________
Mike Starkey
VAF 909
Rv-10, N210LM.
Flying as of 12/4/2010
Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011 
Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.
"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
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02-25-2012, 12:56 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,670
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Found a nice online calculator
It even (correctly) takes into account the angle-off of the adapter.
http://www.cncexpo.com/TorqueAdapter.aspx
Try putting an angle of 180 degrees in, see what happens. You can change the length to see the results as well.
__________________
Pete Hunt, [San Diego] VAF #1069
RV-6, RV-6A, T-6G
ATP, CFII, A&P
2020 Donation+, Gladly Sent
Last edited by PCHunt : 02-25-2012 at 12:57 AM.
Reason: Add info
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02-25-2012, 01:00 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillL
Think about it . . . if you applied a pure torque to that wrench and it was not attached, what would happen - it would spin, right? So the reaction at the nut can NOT be zero and the real answer is it is equal to that applied.
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You know, even as dusty as my statics and four years of physics are, Bill's counterpoint to my claim above sounds right. I'm tired and just checked into VAF for a few seconds on my way to bed, but I couldn't let my probable error stand overnight unchecked. I'll revisit this again once I have time to sketch a proper force diagram to figure out where my intuition went wrong. At least Bill and I agree that trusting the science is the right approach.
--
Stephen
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02-25-2012, 01:31 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ashland, OR
Posts: 2,574
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Both could be right! Advanced Statics....
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatherson
You know, even as dusty as my statics and four years of physics are, Bill's counterpoint to my claim above sounds right. I'm tired and just checked into VAF for a few seconds on my way to bed, but I couldn't let my probable error stand overnight unchecked. I'll revisit this again once I have time to sketch a proper force diagram to figure out where my intuition went wrong. At least Bill and I agree that trusting the science is the right approach.
--
Stephen
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Actually, depending on how you hold the impact wrench, either solution is possible.
In case 1, you do your best to hold the impact driver still. In doing so, you provide a reaction force that counters the wrench interaction on the nut. You get a force couple that cancels the moment, with no torque on the nut.
In case 2, you do not resist the motion of the impact wrench, only its rotation. The wrench will try to orbit the nut, and in doing so, transmit the pure torque to it with no force couple. This assumes it does not orbit so fast that centrifugal force throws it off the nut though! 
__________________
Steve Smith
Aeronautical Engineer
RV-8 N825RV
IO-360 A1A
WW 200RV
"The Magic Carpet"
Hobbs 625
LS6-15/18W sailplane SOLD
bought my old LS6-A back!! 
VAF donation Jan 2020
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