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02-16-2012, 01:37 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: KSLC
Posts: 4,021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birkelbach
Guys seriously. This is not complicated. These are prop bolts that we are talking about. Let's get it right.
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Then just use it on a 90, and don't worry about it. Mine were done with a 90..
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02-16-2012, 01:37 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: AOTP
Posts: 192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerfTech
If you use this tool on your bolts, it and it alone boosts the power of what ever devise you use to tighten the bolts by a factor of plus 20%.
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If you use this tool (inline) and a 0.8 correction factor on your bolts, and you use it with an 18" wrench, your bolts will be just under 7% undertorqued. 24" wrench? 10% undertorqued.
__________________
Nauga
2004 RV-4
Last edited by nauga : 02-16-2012 at 01:40 PM.
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02-16-2012, 01:39 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Douglas Flat, CA
Posts: 589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L.Adamson
I'd still like to see definate proof, beyond all doubt...........that the spring release mechanism of a "click" torque wrench, has to comply with the same physics that apply to a beam torque wrench. While the tables presented so far, make perfect sense for a "beam", how do they really relate to a compressed spring?
L.Adamson
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This is an issue of proving a negative. I think you would find it more instructive to prove that the two types are fundamentally different than to try to disprove that they are the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccsmith51
if this is all a very clever marketing plan to keep the wrench at the top of the new posts lists for days on end... 
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"...all sound and fury..."
Thanks, Bob K.
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Bob Kuykendall
HP-24 kit sailplane
EAA Technical Counselor
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02-16-2012, 01:41 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 359
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Yep
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Kuykendall
I'm sorry, but all the color, exclamation points, and emoticons in the world aren't going to make you right. Go back to your statics textbook and study the chapters on moments and rigid bodies. As I have shown, they are the basis for the simple applications of physics behind the formulas for torque wrench correction embodied in AC43.13.
Edit Add: Really, I encourage you to find a real mechanical engineer and have them explain this to you. Trust me, it will be better for you and for your ability to develop and promote your products.
Thanks, Bob K.
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Yep,
The nice thing about this is that consensus has nothing to do with it. The right answer (not Allens, sorry) isn't a matter of opinion.
If you can't or won't follow the statics in Bob's postings, then just take Part 43 on faith and move on.
It has been really entertaining though. Just wish I find some way to introduce primer or tailwheels into it.  
__________________
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David Edgemon
RV-9A N42DE
RV-8 N48DE
whats next ??
Track me!
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02-16-2012, 01:55 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: KSLC
Posts: 4,021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Kuykendall
This is an issue of proving a negative. I think you would find it more instructive to prove that the two types are fundamentally different than to try to disprove that they are the same.
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It's as simple as making some tests, between different wrenches. But of course, I have to think deeper (even if it's wrong) .
What would change the inherent characteristics of a spring/pawl system in a click wrench, if a cheater bar is added for length? Why would the spring compression figures & release mechanism.......suddenly change, because I added some length to the handle. I suppose, I'd like to see an engineering graph on this, also.
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02-16-2012, 01:56 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Livermore, CA
Posts: 167
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Quote:
Edit Add: Really, I encourage you to find a real mechanical engineer and have them explain this to you. Trust me, it will be better for you and for your ability to develop and promote your products.
Thanks, Bob K.
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Bob, I'm a "real" mechanical engineer, and your explainations are 100% correct and in my opinion very clear. I'm not sure how much more explaination you could give.
Quote:
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........This thread is actually beginning to scare me. The lack of understanding I am witnessing here could potentially have costly or dire consequences impacting safety. I am somewhat in disbelief!
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Allan, I agree with this part of your statement. I'm sorry but maybe you should do an experiment to prove to yourself that Bob is correct. .8 is not a constant. Please study Bob's figures "G and H" in post #154. It shows why if you're using a longer than one foot torque wrench, you need more than 80 ft-lbs at the connection to the extension to get 100 ft-lbs at the bolt. So no matter what type of wrench (clicker or beam) you need to set it at the value given by the equation shown multiple times thru out this thread.
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Chris
RV-8 Wings
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02-16-2012, 02:09 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Waller, Texas
Posts: 146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L.Adamson
It's as simple as making some tests, between different wrenches. But of course, I have to think deeper (even if it's wrong) .
What would change the inherent characteristics of a spring/pawl system in a click wrench, if a cheater bar is added for length? Why would the spring compression figures & release mechanism.......suddenly change, because I added some length to the handle. I suppose, I'd like to see an engineering graph on this, also.
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The cheater bar would not affect this at all as long as you don't put Allen's little extension on it. If you put the little extension on it then the cheater bar starts to matter. The torque wrench will still be measuring the same torque at the end of the torque wrench but that doesn't mean that the torque three inches away is simply 25% higher because the extension is 3" long.
The mechanism in the torque wrench is simply a method to measure torque. Granted a beam torque wrench measures torque in such a way that where you apply the force matters but other than that they are simply measuring the same torque.
__________________
Phil Birkelbach
RV-7 727WB - Flying
Pitts S1C - Restoration
Christavia Mk1 - Fuselage
www.myrv7.com
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02-16-2012, 02:18 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: KSLC
Posts: 4,021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birkelbach
The cheater bar would not affect this at all as long as you don't put Allen's little extension on it. If you put the little extension on it then the cheater bar starts to matter. The torque wrench will still be measuring the same torque at the end of the torque wrench but that doesn't mean that the torque three inches away is simply 25% higher because the extension is 3" long.
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I'm visualizing that last partial revolution of the nut..........as it get's very close to the final torque setting. Let's say that it has 1/8" of travel to go...........but the 12" bar (along with the 3" extention), is suddenly changed to 24" with a cheater. Does that last 1/8", now become 1/4, 3/16, or whatever.............because the torque setting must now be 88.9?
edit: This example would be with a click wrench
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02-16-2012, 02:22 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 522
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All this noise can't be for real. Just can't be.
I know how smart some of the posters here are
"What would change the inherent characteristics of a spring/pawl system in a click wrench, if a cheater bar is added for length? Why would the spring compression figures & release mechanism.......suddenly change"
Nothing changes if you add leverage to the end of the handle. That's just making life easier by not requiring as much arm strength to get the torque wrench to ''click''. You wouldn't be stoking the fires here would you? I can't believe I'm even responding to this thread. Now, if you add the leverage extension between the torque wrench and the nut, now you have changed everything and you need to make the adjustment to the torque setting per the very correct formulas listed way back. Forget that .8 nonsense. That's one answer to a 12 inch wrench with a 3 inch extension between the torque wrench and the nut in a straight line, not 90 degrees. Jeeeesz. 
__________________
Wendell VAF#1832
RV-6A 3/4 done...N48JE Reserved 
Build site: www.mykitlog.com/weneng
Donated to VAF in 2020
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02-16-2012, 02:31 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: KSLC
Posts: 4,021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WenEng
I know how smart some of the posters here are
"What would change the inherent characteristics of a spring/pawl system in a click wrench, if a cheater bar is added for length? Why would the spring compression figures & release mechanism.......suddenly change"
Nothing changes if you add leverage to the end of the handle. That's just making life easier by not requiring as much arm strength to get the torque wrench to ''click''. You wouldn't be stoking the fires here would you? I can't believe I'm even responding to this thread. Now, if you add the leverage extension between the torque wrench and the nut, now you have changed everything and you need to make the adjustment to the torque setting per the very correct formulas listed way back. Forget that .8 nonsense. That's one answer to a 12 inch wrench with a 3 inch extension between the torque wrench and the nut in a straight line, not 90 degrees. Jeeeesz. 
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When you actually explain the compressed spring characteristics, instead of just repeating the laws of "beam" physics, then I'll be much more interested in what's said. Up to this point.................all I'm hearing is.. "because" it's written, and no actual explanation. I just figure that everyone here so far, doesn't really know...
I want to know, the exact workings of a compressed spring/pawl system, compared to physics and calculations derived for a beam type torque wrench. And yes, this applies to use with an extension.
edit: We already know that the relationship changes, when an extention is added, and that the setting will be less. Now, why does the spring loaded setting, change, because I just added some additional length, to the handle. The required force has changed, but what has changed within the compressed spring?
Last edited by L.Adamson : 02-16-2012 at 02:35 PM.
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