Consolidated Lessons Learned With Plans?

[grayforge]

I'm thinking more than just a thread. More like 3 new categories/subforums under each model specific area. Example:

• RV-7/7A
  • Plans Clarifications
    • Sticky describing the category
    • Posts within this category...
  • Assembly Tricks
    • Sticky describing the category
    • Posts within this category...
  • Changes and Upgrades
    • Sticky describing the category and disclaimer to implement these ideas at your own risk...
    • Posts within this category...

Below these 3 new categories would be the current generic questions and posts we have now.

I suppose another option is to start another site focused only on these areas and link back to VAF for additional info/reference where appropriate. But again, consolidating info in one place is preferred. Plus, VanAirForce has tremendous traffic already.

[longranger]

Originally Posted by rockwoodrv9

...I made the assumption everyone else did too - sort of like the plans make the assumption that the stiffners on the rudder, though shown on the plans as the same on each side, in fact are not the same. ...

I'm building a -7, but it uses a -9 rudder, and there is no difference between the stiffeners on the two sides. When you finish cutting the parts out of the sticks provided you end up with two identical stiffeners of each length. Pick either one for whichever side you match drill first, then use the left over one on the other side.

The flange is up on one side and down on the other because you have to rotate them 180* around their long axis to put the drilled flange against the opposite skin. As long as you point the long taper aft, and use the part with the correct number of holes for the position, it would be hard to go wrong.

[rockwoodrv9]

Originally Posted by longranger

The flange is up on one side and down on the other because you have to rotate them 180* around their long axis to put the drilled flange against the opposite skin. As long as you point the long taper aft, and use the part with the correct number of holes for the position, it would be hard to go wrong.

That is the part missing from the plans. A simple note stating that the flange will be up on one side and down on the other. If you are trying to follow the plans exactly, you spend time trying to figure out how it is possible to cut the same for each side with the material given.

As for the Kitfox having a higher completion rate, it is a much easier plane to build. The entire frame comes welded together and depending on experience, it is easier to do fabric than go through the assemble, drill, dissemble, deburr, reassemble, rivet process. But in the end, you end up with a Kitfox. Not that it is a bad plane - it is a great plane - just not what I want. Now the Glasair, that is not an easy build by any means! I will say the Vans plans are much better than the Glasair of the late 90's!

[JurgenRoeland]

Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan

This moderator doesn't want any part of a "tips list".

I was kind of expecting that and I can understand your remarks. But you have to admit... it was a nice try from my part

[N355DW]

Originally Posted by rockwoodrv9

That is the part missing from the plans. A simple note stating that the flange will be up on one side and down on the other. If you are trying to follow the plans exactly, you spend time trying to figure out how it is possible to cut the same for each side with the material given.

As for the Kitfox having a higher completion rate, it is a much easier plane to build. The entire frame comes welded together and depending on experience, it is easier to do fabric than go through the assemble, drill, dissemble, deburr, reassemble, rivet process. But in the end, you end up with a Kitfox. Not that it is a bad plane - it is a great plane - just not what I want. Now the Glasair, that is not an easy build by any means! I will say the Vans plans are much better than the Glasair of the late 90's!

I just started my -7 in January, and I'm with you on the confusing plans, it took me looking at several builder sites to figure out what was going on with the rudder stiffeners. Now I am on the elevator, and guess what? There is a section C-C on drawing 5 that shows exactly what we are talking about! So Van's has a drawing before the rudder showing the info you need, but has you build the elevator after the rudder!

I rely quite a bit on various builder's websites, before I start a sequence I will go to four or five different ones and read them several times to try and get an idea of how it goes and prevent any "gotchas". It doesn't always work on the preventive, for example I was reading one site after I built (but had not riveted) my rudder, about being careful not to trim the R-710 horn brace too much, I went out and looked at mine. Sure enough I had edge distance issues! Ordered another one.

Then I got hit with another gotcha, and this one I read about and went and did it anyway! . I was back riveting the stiffeners on the second skin, and back riveting is so easy and goes so quickly - you guessed it - I went past the back riveting plate and dented the skin! Ordered a new one of those! Been working on the elevators since. Skin came today, so I'll probably finish the elevator parts and prime everything together.

Anyway, the various builder sites are invaluable, and there is a recent thread on them, and if you do a search you will find even more.

I scratch built the strcture of a Pitts Model 12 from plans before this project, so I have some previous building experience. I am having a wonderful time with this project though, and while I think some things could be done better by Van's, I am very happy with my experience so far.

[grayforge]

I did some more thinking on this and came up with a refinement of the consolidated plans info idea. While having additional categories for narrowing the focus for tips and tricks would be nice, a completely different paradigm might work for specifically helping with construction and following plans:

• A web site with an index along the left side of the screen listing the section/page of the manual or instructions that a particular tip refers to
  
• Builders could look through this list for areas of the plans that they are working on, hopefully clearing up confusion or even preventing them from hitting a stumbling block
• People who have clarification or tips to add would be able to create a new page. The page would let them add the tip information as well as a separate field for entering the Plans location.
• The information would be sorted by Plans Section/Page, etc.

Something like this:

[rockwoodrv9]

Originally Posted by N355DW

I just started my -7 in January, and I'm with you on the confusing plans, it took me looking at several builder sites to figure out what was going on with the rudder stiffeners. Now I am on the elevator, and guess what? There is a section C-C on drawing 5 that shows exactly what we are talking about! So Van's has a drawing before the rudder showing the info you need, but has you build the elevator after the rudder!

I rely quite a bit on various builder's websites, before I start a sequence I will go to four or five different ones and read them several times to try and get an idea of how it goes and prevent any "gotchas". It doesn't always work on the preventive, for example I was reading one site after I built (but had not riveted) my rudder, about being careful not to trim the R-710 horn brace too much, I went out and looked at mine. Sure enough I had edge distance issues! Ordered another one.

Then I got hit with another gotcha, and this one I read about and went and did it anyway! . I was back riveting the stiffeners on the second skin, and back riveting is so easy and goes so quickly - you guessed it - I went past the back riveting plate and dented the skin! Ordered a new one of those! Been working on the elevators since. Skin came today, so I'll probably finish the elevator parts and prime everything together.

Anyway, the various builder sites are invaluable, and there is a recent thread on them, and if you do a search you will find even more.

I scratch built the strcture of a Pitts Model 12 from plans before this project, so I have some previous building experience. I am having a wonderful time with this project though, and while I think some things could be done better by Van's, I am very happy with my experience so far.

Damon, I agree with you, this is a great plane and kit. So much of it is easy to understand and makes sense, but everything can be improved. It it way better than the Glasair plans and kit of the 90's.

I also have several builder sites that I go to and that makes all the difference. I haven't had to order anything new yet, but almost with the stiffners. Building the toolbox made it VERY clear that I needed more practice with the rivet gun. The round head rivets were going great until I got careless - now the front of the toolbox has some nice divots in it that look very much like the end of the rivet pounder! Im not even going to describe how my first flush rivets came out. Lets just say I as very glad I found out how bad I was at riveting on the toolbox rather than the skin of the HS.

I picked up some scrap aluminum and have been working with it to get some more experience. When I get to the first skin, Im going to get someone with experience to help me out.

I am also having a good time working on this build. It is a great stress reliever after spending the day "negotiating" with attorneys and engineers. Maybe I should bring the rivet gun to the meetings!

Have a good evening,

rockwood

[rockwoodrv9]

Originally Posted by grayforge

I did some more thinking on this and came up with a refinement of the consolidated plans info idea. While having additional categories for narrowing the focus for tips and tricks would be nice, a completely different paradigm might work for specifically helping with construction and following plans:

• A web site with an index along the left side of the screen listing the section/page of the manual or instructions that a particular tip refers to
  
• Builders could look through this list for areas of the plans that they are working on, hopefully clearing up confusion or even preventing them from hitting a stumbling block
• People who have clarification or tips to add would be able to create a new page. The page would let them add the tip information as well as a separate field for entering the Plans location.
• The information would be sorted by Plans Section/Page, etc.

Grayforge - What a great layout. I believe it would be very helpful. If the moderators that "want no part of it", do not want it here, it would be easy to host it on a builders site.

Nice layout.

[Ironflight]

Guys, please don't think that Moderators "don't want it here" - you read that wrong. The truth is, this has been tried - you can find a "sticky" at the top of the RV-3 forum which is just for people to post things they found that are wrong wit the plans. But the problem is, it is only as useful as what is contributed, and you simply can't beat folks into contributing.

It's not for lack of desire to help people - Sam Buchanan is known as one of the apostles of RV building in his area, helping countless folks in person and with his web site. i try to contribute as much as I can with answering questions and writing up my experiences. In fact, with our recent RV-3 build, I kept copies of all my posts in a "word" file, with pictures, and it is 257 pages long. Yest the truth is, folks will STILL have more questions about things I didn't write about than the things I did. And I doubt that anyone else will build an RV-3 like we did - it's all about the custom things each builder wants.

There is, BTW, an entire forum devoted to "Tips" with almost 500 threads.

You can create all of the formats and outlines that you want - content is what you are looking for. There is nothing whatsoever stopping you from using these forums for exactly what you want - you just have to figure out how to lad the effort in a way that inspires folks to contribute. that is, after all, the definition of leadership.

Paul

[David Paule]

"27 Years of the RVator" from Van's is almost entirely a great collection of tips and comments. It's somewhat sorted by model, but tends to lean on the -6.

It's definitely worth ordering.

Also read all the threads on the "Tips" section of VAF. Someone else pointed this out. And for your model, read every single thread in that section.

Dave