Consolidated Lessons Learned With Plans?

[Sam Buchanan]

Originally Posted by rockwoodrv9

Just my thoughts. I know as a new builder, I would like to be able to find model specific tips that will save me time and expense. Im building because I have always wanted to and want a new plane, but I do not like wasting time trying to figure out things that should be explained in the plans and manual.

rockwood

You're going to be "wasting" a LOT of time figuring out things once you get past the airframe riveting!

It's just part of the education process. I have two aircraft build logs online and it always scares me when someone adopts something I've done and when I ask them why....they say "Well, you did it".

The way we develop "building sense" is by doing our homework so we understand the whys of how things go together. Having an "official" tips page could be disastrous to contributor and adopter.

Enjoy your build, it is a challenging and immensely satisfying journey! You will learn more about aircraft construction (and yourself) than you can imagine at this point.

[SlowJoe]

I was thinking it would be useful to have a list of known got'cha's. For example, I've read many posts from new builders who all messed the drilling/edge distance on the same part of the HS. I posted this a few months ago and got pretty much the same response as you got in this thread.

[Sam Buchanan]

Originally Posted by SlowJoe

I was thinking it would be useful to have a list of known got'cha's. For example, I've read many posts from new builders who all messed the drilling/edge distance on the same part of the HS. I posted this a few months ago and got pretty much the same response as you got in this thread.

Joe, please don't think we are discounting your suggestion. When most of us were beginning our project, or just thinking about it, your idea seemed like something that would obviously be useful. But after you have completed your airframe you will come to appreciate the huge number of variables in projects, mission profiles, and most importantly, personalities that makes a list of "tips" so difficult to implement and administer.

You will be fine with the community we have in its present form. The evolution of our RV community since 1997 when I started my RV-6 is staggering in its range of resources. Everything you need to successfully complete your project is in your grasp through this forum and other builders you will come to know.

Enjoy!

[rockwoodrv9]

Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan

You're going to be "wasting" a LOT of time figuring out things once you get past the airframe riveting!

Enjoy your build, it is a challenging and immensely satisfying journey! You will learn more about aircraft construction (and yourself) than you can imagine at this point.

I understand the learning part - and enjoy that. I am the kind of person that reads manuals for fun rather than fiction or novels. I have spent the past 35 years first drawing plans, then learning ACAD, and reading plans, and having plans and engineering drawings produced for me to critique. My current project has over 290 pages of plans and 3000 pages of specifications.
I don't mind "searching" for information, but not for things that should be included. I have probably read every one on the forums web logs - all the different planes. I did 10 years of research before I decided on the 9. I helped build a Kitfox and a Galsair. I have built and drawn plans for several sailboats and canoes. How is it educational to not include information about the stiffners being opposite flange out? In my opinion, that is not the type of education I feel I should be learning about. Maybe why the stiffners are the size they are - why they are in the locations they are, but not waste time noticing that the notch that I am supposed to trim to will not work if the stiffners are the same on each side, rechecking the plans, manual, and finally resorting to looking for photos of other builders. My first thought was I was sent the wrong stiffners. When you are building two sides, and you only show detail for one side, normally a person would think the other side is the same. If it isn?t, why not put a simple note? How does searching the internet for that bit of information make the plane better or me smarter?
I tried to second guess on the HS ribs and when the holes didn?t line up for the angled ribs, I took the entire thing apart, tried them the other way, then had to take it apart again to put it back the way it was. My problem was I hadn?t taken the plastic off and that made the difference. I didn?t want to go through fabrication - assembly ? take apart- assemble again, and order new stiffners.

I am not retired and I have to use my time wisely. Searching for information that should have been included on the plans is wasting time ? not education. Im sure most people find the plans very complete. I don?t. I am only a few days into the project and I have found many areas that would make the build so much easier and more enjoyable ? at least for me. Without the forum and people here answering questions, I think the completion rate would be much lower than it is. Of the 92093 empannage kits sold for the 9, how many are complete? Why not more?

[grayforge]

A nicely organized collection of tips is obviously better than random tips spread across hundreds of web pages. I'm not saying that those hundreds of pages aren't useful, they are great reading! But as a way to find concise info on your build... not very efficient.

Maybe split the Knowledge Base into a few sub categories:

Plans Clarifications
Helpful information where the plans may be less than obvious. Like the mention of stiffeners above.

Assembly Tricks
These would include tips on easier ways to do things than the plans describe, but which result in the same end result. The Checkoway tank assembly technique is an example of this. Or a unique way to use a tool for a task that is non obvious.

Changes and Upgrades
These would contain changes to the plans. From swapping out the fuel valve to a Sam James Cowl. Add a big disclaimer that diverging from Vans' plans is at the builder's risk.

It'd take some effort to build and maintain, but sure would be helpful to a lot of people. Thoughts?

[hendrik]

Originally Posted by rockwoodrv9

Of the 92093 empannage kits sold for the 9, how many are complete? Why not more?

If you subtract 90000 from that number, because that specifies the type, you are already down to ~2100 sold kits. And according to Van's website 720 of them are already flying (i.e. not just the empennage is finished). Not too bad, I think.

[JurgenRoeland]

Totally with you grayforge...

another example I have lately.
I have been seeing that some people are using the support bracket for the fixed fuel pickub tube also to support horizontally the red nut on the flop tube.
I had as many positive feedbacks on that as I had people saying absolutly not to do this. As a non engineer how can I assess the risks or benefits of this ?
A commonly agreed on list moderated by vansairforce forum admin may (in a centralised location, single article) shine a light if this would be a nice mod to do or not.

[Sam Buchanan]

Originally Posted by JurgenRoeland

A commonly agreed on list moderated by vansairforce forum admin may (in a centralised location, single article) shine a light if this would be a nice mod to do or not.

This moderator doesn't want any part of a "tips list".

Already enough heat to be endured without having to decide who's tip makes the list and who's doesn't, and the technical merits of how each tip applies to each model........that is why Vans' technical support has an email address and phone number.

[rockwoodrv9]

Originally Posted by hendrik

If you subtract 90000 from that number, because that specifies the type, you are already down to ~2100 sold kits. And according to Van's website 720 of them are already flying (i.e. not just the empennage is finished). Not too bad, I think.

I understand my kit is the 2094th sold and the 9 is the model number - I made the assumption everyone else did too - sort of like the plans make the assumption that the stiffners on the rudder, though shown on the plans as the same on each side, in fact are not the same.

As for a 1/3 completion rate, I do not thing that is very good. When I helped build the Kitfox, they had about a 65% completion rate if I remember correctly. If you are selling a product that only 1/3 are completed, look at the lost revenue from purchasing the rest of the kit. I know if I were selling a product, I would rather sell $25k full kits than $2k tail kits.

To bring this back to the thread's goal. I agree with grayforge and the idea of a place would be a good idea. If builders wanted to use it - fine. If not, that's fine too.

[hydroguy2]

Originally Posted by rockwoodrv9

....the thread's goal. I agree with grayforge and the idea of a place would be a good idea. .....

then give it a go and start the thread you guys want....maybe some of us are wrong.

BTW- the Best mod for RV-7's is a left hand throttle and Sam James Cowl, hidden hinges are far superior to other fasteners and.... just kidding

As for a 1/3 completion rate, I do not thing that is very good.....the Kitfox, they had about a 65% completion rate...

I'd be amazed if the kitfox completions were double the Vans numbers, especially if you compared completions over a certain time period. Remember Vans has kits going out the door daily faster than people can finish them.