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  #11  
Old 01-10-2012, 01:47 PM
dick seiders dick seiders is offline
 
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Hey Joe, go on down to Sebring and take a GOOD look at all three, and you'll choose the 12. If the Rans LSA is down there look at that too and you'll still pick the 12. You might want to contact Vans before you go (like today) and see if you can line up a ride in Mitch Locke's 12 if you haven't yet flown in one. He is usually there in New Blue.
Dick Seiders
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  #12  
Old 01-10-2012, 02:44 PM
MLock MLock is offline
 
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Location: Salem, OR
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I will be there with New Blue and giving demo flights each afternoon as the weather permits. We can't take reservations for demos so just come by the tent as early as you can on the day you'd like to fly and we'll get you signed up. Our flight schedule is limited in the afternoon by available daylight to usually four flights. Note that the roster fills up quickly.
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  #13  
Old 01-10-2012, 02:45 PM
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KatieB KatieB is offline
 
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I know everyone here loves their ELSA RV-12s. But let's not get into senseless bashing here. The man has a legitimate question. For someone on a budget, there are much more attractive options than a stock ELSA RV-12.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Paule View Post
The Jabiru has after-market liquid-cooled cylinder heads available from another reputable company. Any time something like that happens, there's a reason.
Dave
There's also a reason Jabiru USA has sold over 2,000 engines in this country over the past 10 years, built nearly 150 LSA aircraft with the Jabiru 3300, and never once installed or even considered a liquid cooled head. It's because we know how to install Jabiru engines and design our firewall forward kits correctly. Follow the manual, monitor all your head temps during flight testing, adjust cooling baffles as necessary during break-in, and you will stay confident, cool & happy. (sorry, that sounds like a deodorant commercial...) In particular, the RV-12's air ducts are huge and very effective.

Also, I'm not aware of any Zenith wings to have failed after the structural modifications were completed. I'm hoping it will turn out like the original RV-3 failures... once the fix was implemented, problem solved. Lots of builders have chosen the Zenith as their first airplane kit.

You're right--you can choose any E-AB aircraft OR certified aircraft (Cub, T-Craft, Ercoupe, etc) that meets the flight characteristics and gross weight requirements of LSA and fly it as a Sport Pilot. They must have met the LSA criteria continuously from their original date of certification, though, so be careful there. (For example, some Ercoupes had a "jump seat" in the back that will disqualify them even if the jump seat has been removed.)

Good luck with your hunt! You'll enjoy Sebring.
Katie
Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft
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  #14  
Old 01-10-2012, 03:39 PM
Mark Henderson Mark Henderson is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Napa, Calif
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I have about an hour and a half in a Zenith 650, and 40 or so in my 12. The 650 does not handle as nice as the 12. The controls in a 12 are light and well balanced. It is a joy to fly. I did not have the same feeling about the 650. There are cheaper ways to build the RV-12 than all Vans kits. The Jabiru is one alternative. A basic VFR analog panel would be another. As with all decisions, there are pros and cons. I chose the all Vans route. If I built another I might opt for E-AB and a different engine and panel. It will take longer, and there is a 40 hour fly off.
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  #15  
Old 01-10-2012, 10:21 PM
RatMan RatMan is offline
 
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Location: Southern Mississippi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KatieB View Post
I know everyone here loves their ELSA RV-12s. But let's not get into senseless bashing here.
Haven't seen any bashing but I do understand you have a dog in this fight. As a direct competitor of Vans aircraft and Rotax engines, I understand why you might be a bit defensive. Just so it's understood, I do not nor have I ever owned an RV-12 although I have been heavily involved in the building of two -12s and have ~30 hours or so in them. I have built a few other aircraft including my -8. The flying qualities of the -12 are comparable to other RV's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KatieB View Post
For someone on a budget, there are much more attractive options than a stock ELSA RV-12.
Not if their budget is 65-75K. "Budget" doesn't mean broke. You simply will not find a finer flying E-LSA for 65-75K than an RV-12. I know, for around 10k less they can have a Jabaru powered -12 and I have no problem with that but, it's no longer an E-LSA, no longer a "stock E-LSA RV-12". Actually, I would rather see a Jabaru installed than ANY automobile engine conversion (I bet Van himself would support that statement as well.). Of course, you can build a Sonex, Kitfox, Wag Aero Cub and a bunch more I could name for sub 30K, and those are fine aircraft for the price but they aren't even in the same class as the RV-12. If you know of one, please inform me. If you just don't understand what I'm talking about (not you Katie, I know you know), you need a ride in an RV. Not just a -12, any RV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KatieB View Post
There's also a reason Jabiru USA has sold over 2,000 engines in this country over the past 10 years, built nearly 150 LSA aircraft with the Jabiru 3300, and never once installed or even considered a liquid cooled head. It's because we know how to install Jabiru engines and design our firewall forward kits correctly. Follow the manual, monitor all your head temps during flight testing, adjust cooling baffles as necessary during break-in, and you will stay confident, cool & happy. (sorry, that sounds like a deodorant commercial...) In particular, the RV-12's air ducts are huge and very effective.
Don't take these question the wrong way. I actually think Jabaru engines are a work of art, that being said...

Seeing that you represent Jabaru, can you give us an idea why a third party has developed a water cooled head? Is it really as simple as builder/pilot error that might cause the heads to overheat? Assuming there really has been an overheat problem that prompted this company to develop a solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KatieB View Post
Also, I'm not aware of any Zenith wings to have failed after the structural modifications were completed. I'm hoping it will turn out like the original RV-3 failures... once the fix was implemented, problem solved.
Apples and oranges. As I understand it, the "original RV-3 failures" were due to over-stressing the airframe during aerobatic maneuvers, NOT flutter that suddenly ripped the wing from the airframe while well below VNE. Vans immediate fix was to placard the aircraft. There are a few RV-3's out there still flying with a standard category placard with no problems, a friend of mine has one, he built it. Not really a fair comparison, BUT would you fly a Zenith 601 or 650 that had simply been placarded?? Yes, I know Zenithair has a fix after the FAA got involved and I hope the issue will go away.... I'll leave it at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KatieB View Post
Lots of builders have chosen the Zenith as their first airplane kit.
Now that is fair to say. I would guess most of the builders of the aircraft affected by the issue were first time builders. Unfortunately, some didn't live to regret it.
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Last edited by RatMan : 01-10-2012 at 11:38 PM.
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  #16  
Old 01-11-2012, 02:46 PM
newamiga newamiga is offline
 
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Location: Barneveld, NY
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Hey Joe.. going to Sebring is a great idea. I went there last year as a Sport Student Pilot as well. I was searching for the plane I wanted. I looked closely at both the RV-12 and the RANS S-19. I travelled to the factory to look at the CH 650 as well. I got to test fly the RV-12 with Mitch and he is just an awesome guy and took a great deal of time answering my questions. I flew the S-19 out in Hays KS with Jana Morenz from RANS as well. She is also awesome and will also be at Sebring with the S-19 in the RANS booth. I had a similar consideration as you have in terms of pilots gross weight I was at 235 but have lost about 15 pounds since Thanksgiving thankfully. I was really drawn to the S-19 but in the end bought the RV-12 for useful load. I am just starting on the fuselage kit and as many people have said, the -12 is easy to build.

I learned and got my sport pilot cert in a Gobosh 700 with the Rotax. I have had really nothing but a good experience with the 912 but totally support your decision to look at other options. I am actually looking at the Jabiru for my -12. In the end I actually bought a Gobosh 700 (Aero AT-4) and hopefully if weather holds will be flying it down to Sebring from Colorado. If you want to hook up and grab a beverage while in town PM me and we can hook up and talk planes.

Carl
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  #17  
Old 01-12-2012, 04:09 AM
todehnal todehnal is offline
 
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Location: Kentucky Lakes area in KY
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Default Mark Henderson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Henderson View Post
I have about an hour and a half in a Zenith 650, and 40 or so in my 12. The 650 does not handle as nice as the 12. The controls in a 12 are light and well balanced. It is a joy to fly. I did not have the same feeling about the 650. There are cheaper ways to build the RV-12 than all Vans kits. The Jabiru is one alternative. A basic VFR analog panel would be another. As with all decisions, there are pros and cons. I chose the all Vans route. If I built another I might opt for E-AB and a different engine and panel. It will take longer, and there is a 40 hour fly off.
Hey Mark! I see you're on the forum. Did you get the throttle springs that I sent to you almost a month ago?? Just a reminder, but I didn't receive you payment. Perhaps it was an oversight.

Tom
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  #18  
Old 01-12-2012, 08:52 AM
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KatieB KatieB is offline
 
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Default Sorry for the thread drift, Joe!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RatMan View Post
As a direct competitor of Vans aircraft and Rotax engines, I understand why you might be a bit defensive...

Seeing that you represent Jabaru, can you give us an idea why a third party has developed a water cooled head? Is it really as simple as builder/pilot error that might cause the heads to overheat? Assuming there really has been an overheat problem that prompted this company to develop a solution.
Actually, we really don't compete directly with Van's Aircraft, other than their cut of the RV-12 engine sales. Honestly I think we'll help Van's sell more kits in the long run by giving builders who don't like the Rotax a reliable alternative. Our planes are LSA, but that's where the similarities stop. The people looking to build a -12 are looking for a different airplane than those we offer, whether it's budget, mission, metal vs composite, high wing/low wing, control feel, baggage space, ability to conduct primary training, or whatever. We could argue about the merits of different airplanes all day long, and that's just a matter of personal preference.

As for liquid cooled heads... I really don't know why Rotec did it, because as I said earlier, we just don't see any overheating problems in our installations. I do know that early Jabiru cowl designs had inadequate inlet area for the cylinder heads and oil coolers, which led to overheating in earlier installations, even in Jabiru's own certified aircraft. The Aussies also did not run CHT probes in all cylinders, just the rear. Because we've always used the GRT EIS with CHT probes on all cylinders, we discovered early on that the front cylinders would overheat during climb with that old cowl design; but those operators running 2 probes in the back would never know that until damage was done.

The Aussies have since changed their cowling design, and we haven't seen any problems with overheating with our airplanes and properly-installed FWF kits since then, but like most things in small communities like aviation, the early issues led to a stigma that still exists in some circles. Improperly installed engines by some builders and poor FWF designs by other aircraft companies also add to the stigma. I know there are many Australian-built Jabiru aircraft still flying with those old style cowls...why, I don't know, but I suspect they help to fuel Rotec's case a bit. Some aircraft designs require a very tightly-cowled or completely uncowled engine, which might benefit from a liquid cooled head if they are willing to add the extra radiators & such.

By the way, two of our little J170 S-LSAs just hit their first 1000 hours with no engine problems, and they have been in flight schools their whole lives, air cooled heads & all.
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  #19  
Old 01-20-2012, 11:43 AM
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JoeM JoeM is offline
 
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Thanks for all of the replies. I visited Sebring yesterday and got to look over two of my three choices. I tried on and looked over the CH-650 and RV-12s with both the Rotax and Viking engines. Both the RV and the Zenith felt about the same to me for comfort and ease of getting in and out. I did not see anything to dislike about either one. I will definitely get a flight in both before making my final decision. I will say I am leaning towards the CH-650 for the option of building as a taildragger and the wing fuel tanks however these things are not dealbreakers. Sonex did not have anything at the show.

To Don in Tx, I twisted Jan?s arm and told him to get your engine built so you?ll have it installed before the Skyview shows up.
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  #20  
Old 01-20-2012, 01:28 PM
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DonFromTX DonFromTX is offline
 
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Thanks Joe, will see if that moves him or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeM View Post
Thanks for all of the replies. I visited Sebring yesterday and got to look over two of my three choices. I tried on and looked over the CH-650 and RV-12s with both the Rotax and Viking engines. Both the RV and the Zenith felt about the same to me for comfort and ease of getting in and out. I did not see anything to dislike about either one. I will definitely get a flight in both before making my final decision. I will say I am leaning towards the CH-650 for the option of building as a taildragger and the wing fuel tanks however these things are not dealbreakers. Sonex did not have anything at the show.

To Don in Tx, I twisted Jan?s arm and told him to get your engine built so you?ll have it installed before the Skyview shows up.
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