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Transition training insurance

LettersFromFlyoverCountry

Well Known Member
The guys who came over to do my pre-inspection inspection today both do transition training; both are thinking of no longer doing transition training and it's an issue I haven't heard addressed before, so maybe I missed it.

Apparently, the typical insurance rider for an RV pilot doing transition training is going to go from a ballpark $750, to near $3,000.

This doesn't make much sense to me. The insurance companies WANT we about-to-fly RV pilots to get transition training to keep the number of claims down, and then they're making it more difficult to actually GET it.

Wondering what other CFIs who provide RV transition training are finding in their renewals?
 
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Insurance cost ?

Hard to believe any CFI can get covered for only $750. Most of us pay well more than that just to fly any RV. Much less doing transition.

Just curious what a regular CFI pays relative to an RV transition CFI. Would think many cfis are covered under an FBO policy of some sort.

Bll S
 
WOW! I'm paying $1300 for $75k hull and liability. Maybe I should start giving transition training to get my rates lowered to $750! :rolleyes:
 
Hard to believe any CFI can get covered for only $750. Most of us pay well more than that just to fly any RV. Much less doing transition.

Just curious what a regular CFI pays relative to an RV transition CFI. Would think many cfis are covered under an FBO policy of some sort.

Bll S

It's $750 above and beyond the regular premium. As I indicated in the original post, it's the rider that's $750. It's not the entire policy.
 
That's pretty consistant with the additional premium to insure a certified airplane for commercial instruction, too. There's more risk. That's why it costs more - and why people that rent their airplanes charge money for it.
 
Insurance Costs

That is the way it is, about $750 per aircraft on top of the regular premium. Add to that maintenance costs and you find yourself with a very small margin at the end of the year. Sometimes I think it is not worth the liability exposure.
I tried to get a one $750 charge for all the three airplanes I do training in, since I fly only one at the time. They said $750 per aircraft even do you are not flying them all at the same time. :confused:
Alex D
 
I am not sure I will continue offering transition training after this year for this very reason. Doug Weiler and I had a discussion about this a few months ago when I was renewing my insurance. AlexD and I had a discussion about it just a few weeks ago. Last year the rider was $750 and this year it was $2200. My agent said the $750 policy was no longer being offered, so the only choice was a commercial policy at the higher price. I've talked to EAA a couple of times about this, but I'm not sure if it is really on their radar yet. Being forced to buy a commercial policy when I cannot engage in any commercial operations, other than transition training, does not make me a happy camper.
The FAA and EAA are strongly encouraging transition training, and the insurance companies are requiring the training. Doesn't seem logical, unless you are an insurance company trying to maximize profits, and then maybe it seems like a nice little windfall.:rolleyes:
I have considered just doing it without the rider, but my insurance agent convinced me that even though I am always the PIC during training, the insurance company would likely balk at paying a claim that arose while someone else was at the controls. The hull coverage I might be able to live without, but the liability has to be covered, or it is just not worth the risk.

I am glad you brought this up Bob. Hopefully EAA will take note.
 
Doesn't seem logical, unless you are an insurance company trying to maximize profits, and then maybe it seems like a nice little windfall.:rolleyes:

A $1,000 policy upcharge only seems like a windfall until you consider the risk. There are maybe 50 people in the country with a LODA for transition training. If they all paid the $1,000 premium (which they don't), you're really not even paying for one of them to wipe the nose gear out on a botched landing.

I agree - The insurance companies writing RV accounts SHOULD encourage this training (maybe even help subsidize it). But the truth is, we really don't have much of a hammer. They'd probably be better off to not insure RVs at all vs. subsidizing the risk on transition training. I hate to say it, and I'm not just being negative, but it's probably going to get worse in the coming years. Overall, aviation insurance premiums are currently at a historic low - RVs included.

What will have to happen is that the providers of this training will have to raise their prices to keep pace with the cost of risk and the consumers of the training will have to pay more to get it. And there will probably be fewer "weekend warrior" instructors with a LODA for RV training. You'll have to do it a lot (rather than as a sideline hobby) to pay for the insurance.
 
I mentioned the "windfall" with a bit of tongue in cheek for exactly the reasons you outlined, JD. Clearly, the numbers on the premium side of the equation are pretty tiny to the insurance companies. BTW, the upcharge seems to be more like $2200 to $3000, from what I am hearing.

I did have to raise my prices effective Jan. 1, but that is not likely to cover the cost of my insurance. Wear and tear on the airplane is another factor I have to consider, so, as I said in my first post, I am not sure if I will continue to offer the training next year. I really enjoy the training, meeting new people, and hopefully passing on some knowledge or experience that someone will find useful. But, in the end, it will be a simple business decision, and I hate that.
 
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Catch 22

Seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me. Less transition training means potentially more claims...

Seems like they would be money ahead in the long run to incentivize this rather than beat it down with expensive riders.

This is terrible news indeed when we can't afford safety.
 
Well, shoot. As a low-timer who hopes to have my project in the air this spring, I'll be looking for transition training as well (and was hoping to go to the same local gents that Bob speaks of). Since the insurance co wants 15 hours of dual, it'd be a much easier prospect to do it near home than to pull vacation to go see one of the full time trainers for a week...and, all costs considered, perhaps less expensive even if rates rise to cover higher premiums.

Another catch 22 since I can't register the plane without insurance (state law), and can't get the time in type for a policy without a plane (& CFI transition trainer).

Thinking out loud here...
. The rate increases would impact the "less busy" trainers to a greater degree, from what has been said.
. Is there a policy available that "occasional" trainers could require the trainee to obtain, to provide coverage for their aircraft & liability during the training operations? That might remove the burden from the CFI and put the cost on the trainee pilot.
. As I understand it, there are two ways to get dual in an E-AB, either in your own plane with any CFI, or in the plane of a CFI with a LODA...the latter being the only way for transition into a newly-built plane still in Phase 1.
. If traininge becomes harder to get, seems more folks may fly without, even if it means going naked on the insurance for the first while.

I suppose I could hire someone to fly the phase 1 hours, then pay a CFI for transition in my own plane. Or trade the whole thing in on a new truck and keep renting...
 
You register with the FAA. What does the state have to do with it?

True. You can register with the FAA, you just can't fly your plane. Minnesota requires $100,000 per passenger seat liability for passenger bodily injury or death and for property damage; $100,000 for bodily injury or death to each non-passenger in any one accident; and $300,000 per occurrence for bodily injury or death to non-passengers in any one accident.

Of course, that's the lower end of the costs of registering your plane in Minnesota. You also have to pay the sales tax for the kit, prop, and engine, which will run the average builder about $4,000 up front.

That's the dilemma I'm in right now. Transition training will run about $1,000-$2,000 depending on what the insurance company requires, the insurance itself will run another $1,500 or so, and the sales tax will be $3,700 for me.

I've mostly had a pay as you go project, but I mismanaged this part of it and have to figure out how to come up with $6,000 before first flight. Not easy since wife just lost her gig. OTOH, it gives me more time to have gear leg fairings and wheel pants done before FF.
 
Yep, precisely what Bob said -- I was unclear in my mention of the registration bit. I've already registered with the FAA, which triggered a letter from the state Dept. of Aviation Taxation. Thankfully, they'll let you defer the taxation if the plane is unairworthy. Fail to register w/the state or provide the insurance when flying, and that's one misdemeanor per day.

The part Bob left off is the annual registration "fee", which starts at 1% of value. Compare to Wisconsin, 20 miles away, where if I read the form correctly, the registration fee for E-AB is a flat $50, one time per owner.

Now back to your regularly schedule program; sorry for the thread drift...
 
Where's AOPA and EAA on this stuff???

Good question! And where is the FAA since they are really pushing for E-AB pilots to get transition training?
As I mentioned earlier, I had two or three email exchanges with EAA about this back in the fall when I was renewing my insurance. Their responses did not leave me with the feeling that this was an issue that was really something they were concerned about.
 
Florida is FAA registration only, although you do have to pay sales tax. This is based on your county rate and the sales price (if the airplane is used) or construction price (if the airplane is built). After the initial tax, there is no annual registration requirement/fee.

Cheers,

Vac
 
True. You can register with the FAA, you just can't fly your plane. Minnesota requires $100,000 per passenger seat liability for passenger bodily injury or death and for property damage; $100,000 for bodily injury or death to each non-passenger in any one accident; and $300,000 per occurrence for bodily injury or death to non-passengers in any one accident.


Well heck.
If the cold weather wasn't enough reason to leave, that sure would be.:D

Unfortunately AL has its own taxation group, but no insurance requirements or state registration.
 
Thread drift.... no insurance requirement here in Texas on private aircraft. Also no sales/use tax on an airplane if the purchase qualifies under the "occasional sale" doctrine. Lots and lots of flying days each year... yesterday it was about 75 degrees here and blue skies...the past two consecutive weekends were clear blue skies, cool temps in the 50's and calm winds... perfect flying weather. The summer heat here can be absolutely brutal, though.

And to get back on topic... I sure hope Alex D doesn't get hit with a four-fold increase in his insurance rider and have to hang it up. He's a valuable resource here in N. Texas and I've got friends who did their training with him, and know of someone else who'll be looking for his transition training maybe this fall.
 
Is it necessary to get transition time in an RV-10 for new RV-10 pilots or is time in a RV-6/7 adequate?
 
Is it necessary to get transition time in an RV-10 for new RV-10 pilots or is time in a RV-6/7 adequate?

Depends entirely on the insurance company and the pilots experience and currency, Ron. Generally speaking, it seems like most want 5 or more hours in an RV-10 with a CFI.
 
RV10 dual

When we bought our RV 10 in 2010, our insurance company wanted 2 hours of dual with Alex. But then we each had 300 hours in an RV7a, 500 hours of Grumman Tiger time, and 800 hours of C182 time.
 
When I inquired recently, Chartis didn't require any RV-10 time or transition training. This caught me by surprise. I'm still planning on doing transition training for my safety. I have an IFR rating and about 300 PA-28 hours, so nothing remarkable in my logs.

bob
 
When I inquired recently, Chartis didn't require any RV-10 time or transition training. This caught me by surprise. I'm still planning on doing transition training for my safety. I have an IFR rating and about 300 PA-28 hours, so nothing remarkable in my logs.

bob

Recently I have seen everything from "none required" to 10 or more hours required. Since it seems like a lot of RV's are insured by Chartis these days, they must have some kind of process to come up with a number, but I have not been able to predict what that number will be, based on a pilots experience or ratings.
 
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