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  #11  
Old 01-08-2012, 06:15 PM
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Geico266 Geico266 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartySantic View Post
Please clarify!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetguy View Post
No body has done it on a RV12 Yet!
Read John's post. He said "yet".
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  #12  
Old 01-08-2012, 06:26 PM
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Default No way Jose!

No I' m not doing a BSR.
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RV12 N1212K
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  #13  
Old 01-08-2012, 07:52 PM
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rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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Default Thread drift warning....

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjo View Post
As I understand it, the Cirrus has it due to the difficult to impossible spin recovery charateristics of that airplane. If this isn't an issue, and it isn't with any RV, why would you want one? If you deploy it, you have given up on deciding where you will land, becasue you are no longer in control. I think it would be better to maintain control and land in a place of your own choosing at the slowest possible speed, rather than pull a chute and cross your fingers, but I may be missing the point.

Tim
Implementing the CAPS (Cirrus Airframe Protection System) was a design choice before the first airplane had even flown. One of the Klapmeier brothers had been involved in a mid-air and felt it was a worthwhile feature to add to their design. It has always been assumed to also have been a marketing tool (considering the big emphases given to it from the very beginning). Look Hilda, if we by this airplane, you could feel at ease with even the grand kids flying with us!
The reason spin recovery was not required to be demonstrated for the Cirrus was because the POH specified that any spin entry was supposed to be followed by deploying the CAPS (no proof of spin recovery capability was needed).

All things in airplane design (and flying them) is a trade off/ compromise. Adding a CAPS type system to any airplane is making a big trade in payload capability for a safety system that is usable in a very small percentage of accident scenarios. There has already been nearly endless argument (these forums and elsewhere) of whether it is a very valuable trade considering the limited circumstances that it is of value. There is some argument (which I tend to somewhat agree with) that says that a CAPS type system may even promote pilots to push situations beyond what their comfort level would be if they didn't have the get out of trouble handle right there above their head.

I don't mean to down play the number of lives promoted as being saved because of deploying the CAPS on Cirrus airplanes (though I am not convinced it was necessary or even the best choice in all of the documented accidents), but I can't help wonder how many accidents it contributed too by giving pilots a false sense of security.
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  #14  
Old 01-08-2012, 09:00 PM
rschy rschy is offline
 
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A BRS can save live here's proof!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a8cn...layer_embedded
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  #15  
Old 01-08-2012, 10:30 PM
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DCat22 DCat22 is offline
 
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Default

The RV-7 with the chute has a site, here: http://rvparachutes.com



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  #16  
Old 01-08-2012, 11:33 PM
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Default

An RV12 would have a lower cost unit due to its lower speed for chute deployment than other RV's.

I remember years ago when the developer was actually hand throwing the chute from a Cessna 150 and 172. It worked amazingly well.

I have always wondered how the chute landing would be in dense Forrest.
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  #17  
Old 01-09-2012, 07:22 AM
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I was looking for a surplus ACESII ejection seat but that would really deplete the usable load.
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  #18  
Old 01-09-2012, 08:30 AM
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Dgamble Dgamble is offline
 
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Default Inspections, mandatory replacement periods

Note the relatively large number of BRS-equipped airplanes that appear for sale at right around the 10 year mark. That's at least partially due to the cost of the mandated replacement of the BRS chute, a fairly pricey maintenance event.

That's one of those not-exactly-hidden-but-sometimes-people-don't-know costs, much like the $350 - $500 annual cost for database updates for that Garmin 430.
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  #19  
Old 01-09-2012, 02:48 PM
NASA515 NASA515 is offline
 
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Location: Hansville, Washington
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Default BRS on RV-12

Go to the NTSB accident database and read all the Cirrus reports (I have.) There appear to be many accidents that would have been avoided (assuming you discount the damage/loss from the parachute landing and don't call that event an accident) had the chute been deployed. You will also find quite a number where the chute was deployed at the last minute - too late to properly function.

There have been 31 Cirrus CAPS deployments "saving" 51 lives. The records are here:

http://www.cirruspilots.org/Content/CAPSHistory.aspx

Two of my best friends are retired Boeing Flight Test types who threw a rod in their SR-20 over Bozeman Pass returning to SEA from OSH. The made a successful deadstick landing at Livingston, but told me later they were within 5 seconds of pulling the Big Red Handle. Their skills exceed mine by quite a bit, and Lady Luck played a role.

One of the hardest things for many (most) pilots to do during an emergency sequence is to mentally write-off the airplane. (During WW II, there were a number of airplanes appropriately named "**** the Expense I, II, III, etc.) Nobody likes to ding an airplane. In my analysis of Capt. Sully and his Hudson River landing, one of the most significant events was his early decision to write-off the airplane, and thereafter concentrate on accomplishing his chosen course of action as safely as possible.

Many pilots, and many Monday-morning Quarterbacks, would have returned to LGA, or attempted to land at TEB. And maybe they would have made it. But the odds were, and are, against it. He was flying a Space Shuttle without the energy management software and algorithms. Landing short or long were the more likely outcomes - they would have been disastrous. Especially in those locations.

In some of the comments on this thread, I hear stuff about "retaining control" vs., I guess, giving up control to the chute. The most painful Cirrus accident reports are the ones where a competent and skilled pilot should have given up that control. They're painful because the pilot had available to him an installed device that could have - no would have - saved his life. He paid for it - in $$$ and space and payload - and in the end, failed to collect on his payments.

Here's a particularly painful one:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...10FA163&akey=1

AeroTrek offers the BRS on their airplane for $5495. It's a remarkably small package. Picture here:

http://www.fly-aerotrek.com/pricing.htm

Neither it nor the RV-12 nor any LSA is fat with space or payload, but the question for each individual is whether it's "worth it." Or as Clint Eastwood said in Dirty Harry - "Do you feel lucky?"

A BRS is not available for the RV-12. Probably a good thing for my mental health since I don't have to make a hard decision. I think I would likely forgo it even if available, but not due to not wanting to relinquish control. My insurance agent can buy me a replacement toy. That's what I'm paying him for. I would forgo it because, as an LSA, I'm not flying at night, avoid anything resembling IFR by a country mile, and especially, depend on that low stall speed from mashing me too hard into fixed immovable objects.

But,.... I probably will get a set of those inflatable air bag seatbelts just the same.....

Bob Bogash
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  #20  
Old 01-09-2012, 04:23 PM
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Geico266 Geico266 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeM View Post
I was looking for a surplus ACESII ejection seat but that would really deplete the usable load.
John is working on it.
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