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  #21  
Old 12-29-2011, 11:27 AM
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airguy airguy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV8R999 View Post
Can you be specific, how so?
I think he's referring to taking off as an emergency action - most of us would not consider a takeoff as an emergency, but if you had a condition you needed to escape from (military action) or an urgent mission (cargo delivery or rescue) you could consider that emergency conditions requiring the flight.

Since you make reference to Navy criteria immediately prior to that statement I'm guessing that has something to do with it?
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  #22  
Old 12-29-2011, 11:55 AM
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frankh frankh is offline
 
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Default That was my thought

After I posted the msg..it must have been SAR/military related and not GA where there is no such thing..At least I hope not!

Frank
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  #23  
Old 12-29-2011, 05:11 PM
terrykohler terrykohler is offline
 
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Default My Take On 0/0 Takeoffs

First, gotta admit that I did one once. Rural airport, back taxied full length of RW to check for deer - no wind to worry about anyway. Shifted right of centerline so I could follow the stripe. Full power to the PA28-300 and off before I could break a sweat. On top at 200 feet and all the way across southern Michigan without seeing the ground and knowing it was all 0/0. My first thought after breakout? Geez, this isn't the brightest thing I've done with an airplane.
I know, I know; it was legal. I was qualified and my plane was really well equipped- dual VORs and the latest in ADF ( a movable compass card). What struck me was that while I had considered the risk to myself, I hadn't really given a second thought to anyone on the ground should the engine quit running.
This was about 30 years ago, and I still hold onto it as one of my three top bonehead flying decisions-no emergency, no rescue mission. Just headed out to work. My other top two involved ice and also occurred back when I knew everything about flying.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
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  #24  
Old 12-29-2011, 08:42 PM
jrs14855 jrs14855 is offline
 
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Location: Lake Havasu City AZ
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Default zero-zero takeoffs

I don't consider these foolish or stupid. They are a carefully calculated risk. I have done rvr 700/700/600 in a jet where in reality you can only see one or two centerline lights. With a rotation speed of 150 plus knots in the jet, I am probably slightly more comfortable in a much slower single with a rotation speed of 70/80 knots. Any one who regularly flys low IFR weather should be prepared to make a zero zero landing. The reality is that in the era of the C124, centerline and touchdown zone lights probably had not even been thought of. Understand that when you buy a ticket on the airline there is always the chance you will do a 7/7/6 takeoff and or a landing to cat 3A, depending on the airline and the airplane. I much prefer to be in the left front seat for either event, even if the airplane is single engine. I don't know of any single operators approved for cat 3 but certainly there are some corporate jet operators approved for this. I am reminded once again of the time Dick Rutan dead sticked the Long Eze to an abandoned runway in south TX. He could see the runway straight down thru the fog, the next time he say the runway was at touchdown. A timed pattern from overhead, essentially zero visibility in the fog.
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  #25  
Old 12-29-2011, 08:52 PM
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Flyfalcons Flyfalcons is offline
 
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There's quite a bit of a difference doing a low vis takeoff in a jet where the loss of an engine means a lower climb rate, but still climbing, and a single where you're going down. Even a 1/4 mile visibility may give the single driver some chance of redirecting the aircraft toward a safer landing spot versus zero.
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  #26  
Old 12-29-2011, 09:09 PM
jrs14855 jrs14855 is offline
 
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Default zero takeoff

In the jet the problem is maintaining directional control in the event of an engine failure before V1. In a single with a 8000' runway an engine failure should put you back in the vicinity of the runway-straight ahead.
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  #27  
Old 12-29-2011, 09:18 PM
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Before V1 is easy, it's after that you're thinking about.
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  #28  
Old 12-29-2011, 11:49 PM
Sig600 Sig600 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyfalcons View Post
Before V1 is easy, it's after that you're thinking about.
Shack. If you're having directional control problems with an engine failure prior to V1, you're doing it wrong.
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  #29  
Old 12-30-2011, 04:13 AM
terrykohler terrykohler is offline
 
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Default More Than One Engine Makes 0/0 A Whole Different Game

"They are a carefully calculated risk."
Jim:
I certainly agree with you, but extensive areas of coverage well under minimums makes single engine instrument flight a very high risk - for those in the plane as well as those on the ground. Overflight is one thing, as risk may be mitigated somewhat by increased altitude. Launching off into 0/0 or below minimums with no "outs" for a significant time in a single moves the calculation off my scale, especially if the flight has nothing to do with saving a life.
Fortunately around the Great Lakes, if you don't like the weather, you usually don't have to wait more than 10-15 minutes for it to change. For those times when it doesn't, I've usually got a RON kit aboard.
Terry
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  #30  
Old 12-30-2011, 05:47 AM
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N355DW N355DW is offline
 
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Location: Port St Lucie, FL
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Default Airlines do it, or used to...

The commuter airline I used to work for made us do zero/zero take offs routinely, if they needed the plane back at the hub. I remember doing several out of Charleston, WV. The fog would often form below the airport in the valleys and then lift up to the airport elevation by our departure time.

They would put the passengers on a later flight out, since it was below take-off minimums for 135 or 121, and we would fly back Part 91 so we could fly the rest of our trip. Saved them money rather than have the plane sit there until conditions improved.

I enjoyed them myself. Nothing like flying down the runway with only a few visible RW CLs lines in front of you, then pulling back on the yoke. Usually within seconds you would be blasting out of the top into the bright sun. Very dramatic. We trained in the sim for it as well.

Lest some are tempted, I would never do it in a single, or even a non turbine twin.
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