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  #41  
Old 12-17-2011, 12:22 PM
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longranger longranger is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauiLvrs View Post
Fly: 40 Min, Drive: 3 hours... Fly!
Fly: 12 gal, Drive: 30 gal... Fly!
What are you driving that burns 10gph?
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  #42  
Old 12-17-2011, 03:45 PM
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Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauiLvrs View Post
...Our number one flying goal:
Don't become a report for others to learn from on the NTSB web site...
Interesting... This assumes that the overriding goal of undertaking a dangerous endeavor is "safety"... If safety was truly the driving force, one would avoid flying altogether. After all, nobody flies just to prove it can be done without death.

I think to be accurate, the true number one goal is "have fun", with "don't kill yourself" somewhere lower on the list... And there's the rub - "don't kill yourself" falls lower on some people's list than on others.

We are a risk seeking species, and "fun" continues to be a powerful motivator in the risk/reward equation, and if there is any doubt, check this out.
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  #43  
Old 12-17-2011, 03:54 PM
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Believe it or not Michael, some people actually choose to work at making a risky activity as safe as can be so they can go home to their families at the end of the day. I mean, the RV-8 guy obviously didn't but many do. Shall we give up any notion of flying safely simply because flight in itself involves some risk?
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  #44  
Old 12-17-2011, 04:07 PM
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Yes Ryan, and I'm one of them. I'm also sure that most people doing low altitude acro are trying to do "low altitude acro" (or single engine IFR at night, or formation, or...) as safely as it can be done. The probelm is when somebody writes off the whole concept of "low altitude acro" as stupid simply because that activity does not rate high enough on their own risk/reward scale.

That video shows some activity that makes my skin crawl, but I sure don't think any of the people shown have a death wish. We simply can't always apply our values to other people. That's all.
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WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.

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1984 L39C

Last edited by Toobuilder : 12-17-2011 at 04:09 PM.
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  #45  
Old 12-17-2011, 04:12 PM
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None of us wake up in the morning thinking "I'm going to die in an aircraft today". Some just seem to try harder at it based on how they fly or make aeronautical decisions.
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  #46  
Old 12-17-2011, 05:53 PM
WhiskeyMike WhiskeyMike is offline
 
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I used to really scratch my head when I encountered blind spots regarding people?s views and beliefs about risk, especially when the blind spots were demonstrated by people who themselves were risk takers. I could understand how someone who wasn?t a pilot, or a rock climber, or (insert your favorite risky avocation here) might look at those activities and say ?anyone who would do such a dangerous thing has to be irresponsible.? But I was always surprised when I heard a climber, whose activities were limited to wall climbing (even big walls!), question how someone engaging in alpine climbing (high altitudes, ice, inclement weather?i.e. much higher risk) could justify taking such an extreme risk. Mind you, the direct implication was NOT that alpine climbing was merely more of a risk than THEY were willing to accept, but that anyone who would accept such risk was ?going too far?.

For fun, the next time you encounter the behavior try pointing it out (respectfully) to the other person(s) and see what reaction you get. Occasionally someone will pause and look back with an ?ah-ha? kind of moment. In my experience, usually the reaction is more along the lines of ?I can?t believe that you don?t agree with me?!

Even now it can still hurt my head to see/hear such notions pursued with vigor. I just wish people could more readily accept that different folks have different risk tolerances, and that we don?t need to be critical of where others draw their lines to make us feel good about where we draw ours!

Michael, you are spot on with all of your posts in this thread. And people don?t fly (or climb, race, jump, et al) primarily for safety. Such an assertion is, on its face, rather incredulous! People engage in these kinds of activities because doing so gives them something they cannot get elsewhere. It makes them feel alive!! It is an adventure, and the desire for adventure runs deep inside human beings and drives us in ways that we may not always be consciously aware of. There is lots of interesting stuff about this in behavioral science literature, for anyone interested in learning more about WHY we do what we do.
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Last edited by WhiskeyMike : 12-17-2011 at 06:21 PM.
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  #47  
Old 12-17-2011, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeyMike View Post
...
For fun, the next time you encounter the behavior try pointing it out (respectfully) to the other person(s) and see what reaction you get. Occasionally someone will pause and look back with an “ah-ha” kind of moment...
Bill,

My "Ah-ha" moment was reading an article in one of the aviation magazines when the author (an accomplished ATP) was interviewing one of the aerobatic superstars. The author talked with "superstar" about the risk of low altitude acro - to which the superstar replied he was far more comfortable with it than shooting an ILS to minimums. "Ah-ha", we have different comfort zones...

While there are some accidents where we can all get behind and wonder WHY the pilot chose that course of action... Like penetrating a hurricane in a Tri Pacer, the outcome is almost certain. However, much of our collective hand wringing occurs on this forum as a result of much less certain outcomes, but is in fact a function of our own comfort level. We may wonder why the pilot crashes as a result of poorly executed low altitude acro, but do we ever stop to think that low altitude acro was the "mission objective" for that flight, and the pilot went into it with eyes wide open?
While databases are fine if you are looking for some unknown trend, much of the same accidents will continue to happen because they are deliberate acts - not the crash, of course, but reduced margin flying. Yes, we should make our activities as "safe" as possible, but I'm a realist and know that some of these deliberate activities would make my eyes water.

Let's not be so quick to compartmentalize and judge other pilots.
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WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.

Michael Robinson
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RV-8 - SDS CPI
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1984 L39C
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  #48  
Old 12-18-2011, 01:34 AM
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MauiLvrs MauiLvrs is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longranger View Post
What are you driving that burns 10gph?
Oops mixed round trip for one and each way for the other...
So it's about 5 gal hour...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toobuilder View Post
Interesting...
I think to be accurate, the true number one goal is "have fun", with "don't kill yourself" somewhere lower on the list..... .
That was my first impression to, but decided to swap the order because we'd like to continue to have fun.

In most things it is really important to put safety first.

Flying and SCUBA diving are two of the things we do where safety comes first.
Driving too, but you have very little control over what other people do.
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Last edited by MauiLvrs : 12-18-2011 at 01:42 AM.
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  #49  
Old 12-25-2011, 09:32 PM
rockwoodrv9 rockwoodrv9 is offline
 
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I am new to the this board, but have been around flying most of my life in everything from and old piper 140, Kitfox, Glassair, 182, and Citation Ultra. None of them were my planes, but I did fly them from the left seat- except the Citation.

I am getting ready to start on a 9a. My reason to build and the reason I flew previously is to get from one place to another. I enjoy flying and the freedom it gives me to go where I want without the restrictions and BS you have to deal with when traveling commercial. When i travel for business, i go commercial or if I am lucky, I get the Citation. I have fixed times and dates I need to keep - something I can't guarantee with the 9a I am building. I am lucky, most of the time I can do my job wherever I am so a day early or late isn't a problem. Those are the times I would take the 9a.

An example - I am near the GWS airport in Colorado. We travel to Provo (PVU) quite often to visit kids - grandkids. It is a 5-6 hour drive of 350 miles. FLTPLAN.com has it at 209 nm. In the 9, that is about 90 min wheels up to wheels down. Same thing to Boise, Denver, SLC, or wherever.

I have no need for a thrill or any interest in plugging myself and wife into the ground. I know there is risk in everything and I do what I can to minimize that risk. I enjoy life and family too much to risk losing it in any way. My personal limits for flying include no night flying, no buzzing anyone, no bad weather flying, not running out of gas, and flying a plane I believe is the best it can be.

I don't really concern myself with others limits and what they feel are acceptable to them. It is their life and as long as they stay away from me while I am in the air - it is their business. I appreciate the accident data and other information on how and why the type of plane I am building and plan to put myself in when I go from 2 dimension to 3 dimension and back. Maybe I can learn something that will lower my risk and allow me to spend more time with my wife and family.

The one fact we all have to acknowledge is that when a homebuilt plane has an accident - no matter what the reason, it is the first thing about the accident that is in the news. All of us have to deal with the aftermath and possible changes in rules to "protect us from ourselves". The last thing we need is idiots in Washington trying to further regulate the experimental airplane community.

I just want a faster way to get from point A to point B, as safe as I can make it. Of course it is much more fun flying than driving most cars, but I had a Fiat one time that was pretty fun to drive! Be safe and have fun too.
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  #50  
Old 12-26-2011, 05:37 AM
sailvi767 sailvi767 is offline
 
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One thing I would like to add on the posts on low altitude acrobatics. I don't see anything wrong with them as long as there is proper preparation and training. That statement however excludes low altitude acro that is not planned well in advance over a know area. Low altitude acro that is spur of the moment over terrain of varying or unknown altitudes without a spotter is a entirely different animal and seems from the accident reports to be where the problem can be found.

George
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