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  #31  
Old 12-15-2011, 01:42 AM
PCHunt PCHunt is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toobuilder View Post
...................We know that flying in formation serves no practical purpose and increases the risk of midair tremendously ? yet we do it anyway; ............
Michael, your overall point about pilot behavior is well taken, however, I am not sure that what may SEEM obvious or SOUNDS right is actually true. There are very few mid-air collisions in formation flight. In the Warbird arena, most of the collision accidents occur on the ground. I do not "KNOW" that formation flying increases the midair potential "tremendously".

Do you have published statistics to offer?

One practical purpose of formation flying is to improve one's stick and rudder skills, especially in the area of smoothness.

............Similar in some ways to practicing short field landings by ultra-high angle-of-attack approaches.
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  #32  
Old 12-15-2011, 06:49 AM
RV8R999 RV8R999 is offline
 
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Default Reasons for formation

Formation flying :

if a group of planes want to fly to the same destination at the same time from the same starting location I'd say a well briefed and standardized formation is far safer than those same airplanes flying randomly...

1. you have built in SAR capability
2. a formation of planes is easier for other planes to see than single ship
3. you have on-demand assistance with any technical issues
4. you have someone to talk to on a long cross-countries
5. you have people to share the cab/beer tab with at the destination
6. you can make awesome youtube videos
7. most important of all and the entire reason these aircraft exist - IT's FUN!

out
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  #33  
Old 12-15-2011, 07:00 AM
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Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCHunt View Post
...There are very few mid-air collisions in formation flight. In the Warbird arena, most of the collision accidents occur on the ground. I do not "KNOW" that formation flying increases the midair potential "tremendously".

Do you have published statistics to offer?;...
I "know" that if I want to avoid hitting other airplanes, the best way to do this is to stay away from them. Therefore, intentionally flying in close formation IS a tremendous risk increase compared to "normal" see and avoid techniques. As for statistics, didn't we just kill a trained member of an RV formation team within the last year?


Quote:
Originally Posted by PCHunt View Post
...One practical purpose of formation flying is to improve one's stick and rudder skills, especially in the area of smoothness....
There is no doubt that such activity sharpens your stick and rudder skills, but the same can be said for flying inverted under a freeway overpass... There are much less risky options for gaining those skills so don't use false logic to justify your actions... Sometimes "because it's fun" is plenty of justification. We should not let anyone tell us otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCHunt View Post
...Similar in some ways to practicing short field landings by ultra-high angle-of-attack approaches...
Yes, that is higher risk than a normal stabilized approach; just as a forward slip is higher risk... I never said otherwise.
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Last edited by Toobuilder : 12-15-2011 at 08:25 AM.
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  #34  
Old 12-15-2011, 08:24 AM
RV8R999 RV8R999 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toobuilder View Post
I "know" that if I want to avoid hitting other airplanes, the best way to do this is to stay away from them.
nope - best way is to stay home and knit a sweater
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  #35  
Old 12-15-2011, 09:00 AM
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Toobuilder Toobuilder is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV8R999 View Post
nope - best way is to stay home and knit a sweater
Exactly my point - staying at home is certainly one way to stay away from other airplanes and therefore minimize risk.

But let's not kid ourselves - Flying formation requires skill, discipline and rapt attention to avoid a midair. This is why flying enroute in "loose contact" allows everyone to relax a little. Flying as a single ship requires even less skill, discipline and attention (as evidenced by allowing student pilots to share the air with us). Therefore:

Single ship = easy/lower risk;

Formation = more difficult/higher risk

Have we come to the point in this little forum world where we are so afraid of offering ?weak? justification for our actions that we make up ridiculous, but socially acceptable ones?

Formation is ?safer? than single ship ?see and avoid?? Come on!

What is wrong with simply accepting the fact that we?re all well informed adults, some more prone to risky behavior than others and leave it at that? After all, we are free to kill ourselves cleaning out our own gutters and topping our own trees without some ?acceptable? justification - why should our decisions about low flying, acro, or formation be any different?
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WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.

Michael Robinson
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1984 L39C
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  #36  
Old 12-15-2011, 10:05 PM
kymjon kymjon is offline
 
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As has been said elsewhere in this thread a number of accidents have occurred while low flying and any risk assessment of doing that must show less room for error. Low level aerobatics, power lines and misjudging terrain at speed are all increase risk down low as are the outcomes of stalls be they low speed, high speed or stick stalls leaving no room or time for recovery.

We are all human and tend to minimize or justify higher risk actions to satisfy our decision to do something risky whether that be low flying or convincing ourselves the weather will be OK. As most of us fly for a hobby/sport we probably take risks we would not take if it was just a job given we fly for fun.

I think one of the issues with RV's versus spam cans is that the RV is a quick, responsive joy to fly and the temptation to hot dog is far greater than trying to drag a no where near as responsive Cessna around. Having an RV I certainly quickly fell in love with it's performance and had to have a stern talk with myself to fly sensibly as I was taught.

The old saying that the runway behind you, the sky above and the fuel you left behind are useless to you is true and many of the accidents relate to one of those things.
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Last edited by kymjon : 12-15-2011 at 10:12 PM.
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  #37  
Old 12-16-2011, 11:00 AM
David Z David Z is offline
 
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Location: Thunder Bay Ontario
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Sports cars have higher accident stats than family sedans. Sport planes like RVs are going to have higher accident stats than your family hauler C182.

If all RVs were flown in day VFR conditions while on IFR flight plans and on short legs with tanks full, their safety stats would go up dramatically. People are going to do low level aerobatics, fly untrained/unequipped into IMC and do it for reasons that just baffle me. Just don't be the person that does it. If you tell yourself that you will never do low level aero, never fly into IMC (unless done properly), always have a good traffic scan, always carry lots of gas, etc. then you have a higher safety level then the stats predict.

If everybody took a second to think about what they are going to do, analyze the risk, then I bet some accidents would be prevented. The ground hurts a lot more than the 3000' mark on an altimeter. Granitis-rockus "clouds" hurt a lot more than telling your boss that your going to be late to work on Monday.
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  #38  
Old 12-16-2011, 11:34 AM
flyinga flyinga is offline
 
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Many good points have been made. It boils down to the fact that we are each going to accept a level of risk that we are comfortable with.

The accidents/incidents I'm most concerned about are those that involve the design or building of an RV. We all learned a lot from the fuel valve handle problem and if neccessary will make fixes. We should all be concerned with problems that are easily fixable and make our flying safer and let each individual choose his/her own level of risk.
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  #39  
Old 12-17-2011, 09:22 AM
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RV7AV8R RV7AV8R is offline
 
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Default In the safety forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunriver Ken View Post
Could this data be used to identify how many RV-A accidents have involved the nose gear? I have a 9A that was involved and was discussing it with a non-RV person. They asked how many RVs had this same "type" of accident and I could not answer him with any difinitive number.

Anyone have an idea of the number?
The data you are looking for is in this thread in Safety forum: http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...t=78858&page=2
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  #40  
Old 12-17-2011, 11:54 AM
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MauiLvrs MauiLvrs is offline
 
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Location: KTCY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Z View Post
... If you tell yourself that you will never do low level aero, never fly into IMC (unless done properly), always have a good traffic scan, always carry lots of gas, etc. then you have a higher safety level then the stats predict.
....
And that is why our safety risks are 90% better than average and it is safer to fly ...
Low level acro -> Nope
Runnin' on empty -> Nope (carry an hour reserve)
Mountain, airplane, cloud sandwich -> Nope
One time, at a party, one of our friends asked us if we could fly them to a wedding the Saturday after next...

Asked: Do you have to be there ???
Answer : .... YES..

Asked: Can you leave as early as Thursday and come back as late as Tuesday if we have to?
Answer: NO...

"Then you would need to drive..." Granite always wins...
Thanksgiving timeshare in Tahoe...
Fly or drive?
Fly: 40 Min, Drive: 3 hours... each way Fly!
Fly: 6.5 gal, Drive: 15 gal... each way Fly!
Travel day up rain and snow: Loose day at resort. Granite hard... Drive!
Travel day back fog at home: Loose day at resort or buy two more... Drive!

Fly: Die flying into rocks with ice... Drive: Long drive with traffic or late drive with little traffic...
It isn't rocket science...
DRIVE!!!
Our number one flying goal:
Don't become a report for others to learn from on the NTSB web site...
Maybe some of the folks have never heard of Murphy?
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Last edited by MauiLvrs : 12-18-2011 at 01:32 AM.
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