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12-14-2011, 11:32 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 8
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No problem Alan. I'd be happy to compile (and perhaps do a more complete job compiling) more data from the NTSB and make nice looking charts and graphs comparing whatever you like. Do you moderate that site or should I contact them directly?
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-Rob D. [Buffalo, NY]
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12-14-2011, 11:32 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailvi767
I believe data and discussion on aircraft accidents is the key to preventing future incidents or accidents...
...I will give just one quick simple example. Junior's the RV-3's off airport landing has changed my behavior on how I will be switching fuel tanks in the future...
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With all due respect, fuel valve issues are not new, nor are they unique to RV's... Many of us are extremely cautious about selecting tanks because of the hazard presented in the existing data... My CFI drilled this into my head long before the John Denver deal.
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WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.
Michael Robinson
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Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
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12-14-2011, 12:10 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Carroll
...Personally I'm skeptical of the view that accidents generally result from someone intentionally doing something stupid. It seems more likely that most accident pilots weren't fully aware the risks they were exposing themselves to, or what they could do to mitigate those risks....
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Perhaps... If that's the case, then we really need to stop telling the fairytale about the "drive to the airport being the most dangerous part" of flying... I know we tell that lie at parties, but some of us are starting to believe it.
No, I am more likely to believe that the guy doing low altitude acro or formation knows it is dangerous... I sure do.
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.
Michael Robinson
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Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
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12-14-2011, 12:17 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Jeffersonville, IN
Posts: 394
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Since someone here has already spent some time compiling I would love to see say # of accidents due to IFR, fuel loss, control failure, engine failure, etc.
Engine failure broken down further might help all of us to watch for specific things that happen once or often.
Same with controls, fuel, etc.
My original goal here was a discussion on how we can learn from the past and reduce our own risk into the future. Fact is most of us won't take the time to go over each and every accident report, but seeing a trend of accidents caused by a specific reason might make a few more people look twice or think twice the next time and save some future grief.
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Jeff Scott
RV9A First Flight 9/30/19
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12-14-2011, 12:48 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queen Creek AZ
Posts: 541
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It's worth knowing more about the risks
This is a good and useful topic, in my opinion. My brief scanning of the early accidents of RV-3's indicated that many, if not most were due to the wing spar failing. This information obviously led to the re-engineering done to the RV-3B wing...a good thing
I personally won't own or ride a motorcycle because I think it's too dangerous! am I kidding myself to believe that my love of aviation is far less dangerous than riding a Harley on weekends? (I would love to see actual stats on this)
In the air I don't usually (over) worry about collisions with other planes once out of the 10 mile radius of the airport. Then, I like to fly at 10000' or higher to minimize the chance encounter with most spam cans, since few of them travel up high because it takes so long for them to get there.
I maintain my airplane myself and know what it's made of. That gives me some confidence I wouldn't have with a rented airplane. Recently I decided to stop doing my "low passes" because of what I read here just a few moths back on how we RV drivers are/can be perceived as hot doggers. The plane itself gives me all the thrills/enjoyment I need. I don't have to show off to others how awesome it handles and performs. It's beautiful on the ramp and I love the reactions I get when it's standing still, looking like it's asking to get back up in the air.
I do still like my overhead approach, but I believe that is a safe manouver when properly planned and executed. So, bring more information about what we should know about the danger involved in our sport, our hobby. It could save us from overlooking something important, or doing something to increase our risk which we really don't need to do to enjoy what we love.
Ron Patterson
RV-4 N8ZD
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12-14-2011, 12:51 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Defiance, MO
Posts: 1,674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ty1295
....how we can learn from the past ...
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Is that not the entire premise of VAF? It applies to building, flying, and maintaining.
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Philip
RV-6A - 14+ years, 950+ hours
Based at 1H0 (Creve Coeur)
Paid dues yearly since 2007
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12-14-2011, 01:12 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patterson
...I personally won't own or ride a motorcycle because I think it's too dangerous! am I kidding myself to believe that my love of aviation is far less dangerous than riding a Harley on weekends? (I would love to see actual stats on this)...
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IIRC, the statistical truth to the "airplanes are safer than cars" myth only applies to the scheduled airlines. When talking GA (spam cans), you are seven times more likely to be killed flying than driving - which incidentally is right even with motorcycles.
That said, given the choice between an E-AB and a Harley, you will live longer on the bike.
Anyway,
Compiling data to uncover some unknown root cause is valid and useful. My point however, is that we already have reams of data which points to irrefutable evidence that a given accident was due to a willful act, yet we ignore it and die anyway. In other words, the PIC gambled and lost with his eyes wide open. It?s my contention that there is no ?fixing? this because it is tied to the human spirit.
We know VFR into IMC usually results in loss of control within 40 seconds ? yet we do it anyway;
We know low altitude acro results in a substantially reduced (sometimes negative) margin ? yet we do it anyway;
We know that flying in formation serves no practical purpose and increases the risk of midair tremendously ? yet we do it anyway;
We know flying at night all but eliminates your landing options and complicates terrain and weather avoidance ? yet we do it anyway;
?and on and on?
In my opinion, even 100% accurate RV accident data would only confirm what we already know: Flying is dangerous, and some pilots like it that way.
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.
Michael Robinson
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Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
Last edited by Toobuilder : 12-14-2011 at 01:50 PM.
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12-14-2011, 02:08 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: KTCY
Posts: 643
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toobuilder
When talking GA (spam cans), you are seven times more likely to be killed flying than driving - which incidentally is right even with motorcycles.
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BUT, If I were to die in an airplane, it would likely be my fault. If I were to die on a bike, it would likely be someone else's fault.
I can control what I do, but can't control what they do...
I'm ahead of the game in the plane, and behind on the bike...
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Dave & Trina
RV-9A Flying  - 330 Hrs. Painted  Finishing the interior.
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12-14-2011, 02:19 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Bonney Lake, WA
Posts: 295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauiLvrs
BUT, If I were to die in an airplane, it would likely be my fault. If I were to die on a bike, it would likely be someone else's fault.
I can control what I do, but can't control what they do...
I'm ahead of the game in the plane, and behind on the bike...
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That is my exact thought on motorcycles as well. Trail bike riding would be another story and lots of fun in my opinion. As far as airplane accidents go, there will always be someone dumb enough to try something they shouldn't and auger in.
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Ryan Winslow
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12-14-2011, 02:33 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,652
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauiLvrs
BUT, If I were to die in an airplane, it would likely be my fault. If I were to die on a bike, it would likely be someone else's fault...
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Any way you slice it, dead is dead...
You may not notice what you just did there, but you are trying to rationalize "beating the odds" through your own sense of skill- the "other guy" syndome... We all do this to some extent, but we're not all as good as we think we are.
The ones that aren?t end up in the NTSB database.
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.
Michael Robinson
______________
Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
Last edited by Toobuilder : 12-14-2011 at 02:46 PM.
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