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12-13-2011, 02:04 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Jeffersonville, IN
Posts: 394
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RV Accident Database
With the recent accident as well as my current on-going PPL training I have carefully studied and looked at several accident reports (RV and Non RV related).
I think we all know ~80% of accidents are due to bad judgement calls somewhere (run out of fuel, flying into IFR conditions, etc.)
It got me to thinking if a RV specific database has ever been compiled (maybe from FAA records as well as other accounts like the fuel selector issue). Something fellow RV pilots and builders could learn from.
All this accidents are horrible things, even more horrible in my opinion is to NOT learn from them.
When the time comes for my first flight I would find it valuable to go through such a database and even form a checklist to check for these things in the hopes of increasing my safety and those around me.
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Jeff Scott
RV9A First Flight 9/30/19
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12-13-2011, 03:09 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Fort Myers
Posts: 370
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There is one...I don't have the web address at the moment..Anyway, it's quite sobering to go through the accidents. In addition to the usual weather and fuel accidents, there are a disproportional amount of low level aerobatics, buzzing, cfit and midairs( mostly formation and airshows).
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12-13-2011, 11:07 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Posts: 102
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For the U.S.: http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/index.aspx
Select "Yes" for "Amateur Built" and type in "rv" for "Model."
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Shannon Miller
RV-7A Fuselage
Last edited by smiller : 12-13-2011 at 11:12 PM.
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12-14-2011, 07:21 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smiller
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Or "Vans"...
__________________
Ron Duren
Mechanical Engineer
"SportAir PhD"-RV Assembly/Composites/Electrical
Denver, CO (KBJC)
RV-7 'Tip Up'
Flying!! as of 3/16/14
IO-375/ WW 200G-CS/ SkyView/ Dual P-mags
N531R "Wablosa" Wings of Red
http://www.ronsrv7project.blogspot.com
Last edited by RV7Ron : 12-14-2011 at 07:24 AM.
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12-14-2011, 09:32 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 8
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First off, mods please let me know if this is offensive.
I did this as professionally and accurately as possible. I downloaded the .XML file after querying the NTSB database for all accidents that were homebuilt and matched "RV" in the model descriptor.
There have been 521 accident reports regarding RV aircraft, the earliest of which is recorded as 1978.
Of the 521 accident reports, 160 of them involved fatalities. (30%)
There have been 215 fatalities associated with the 521 accident reports.
There have been 96 serious injuries, 151 minor injuries, and 301 uninjured.
Taking the data from the last 5 years, I read through all the fatal accident reports and compiled a quick summary sentence of what happened. I then classified them based on several factors.
The table looks like this:
Of the 56 fatal accidents that have occurred in the last 5 years....
I love data. Is there anything else that anybody would like me to analyze and report on?
Also, this is not in any way an indictment of RV's. I'm in the middle of building one, and the statistics for RV's does not vary significantly for fatal accidents from certified aircraft. This is purely taking data that already exists and making it accessible.
Disclaimer: I am not at all licensed or authorized or anything to comment on these cases. My heart goes out to all the family and friends affected by these tragic losses. If anybody does not want this on the boards, please tell me and I'd be happy to take it down. I just thought that others might be interested in these statistics.
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-Rob D. [Buffalo, NY]
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12-14-2011, 09:47 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,652
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This is offered as fodder for discussion, not making an argument, but how will more/better accident data improve safety if our behavior does not change?
Frankly, we have been collecting accident data for 100 years, and it is pretty clear that flying is a discretionary act that happens to carry significantly higher risk to life than sitting on the couch behind locked doors. We all know this ? yet we willingly risk our lives to fly anyway. Dissecting or distilling this fact down to the core causes may make us more informed, but for the most part, it?s obvious we?re going to keep doing what we have been doing. We will continue to run out of fuel; stall on the base to final turn; fly a perfectly good airplane into the ground and have midair collisions. We will do this, because despite widespread cries for ?safety?, we all enjoy performing ?unsafe? acts. Aside from the basic (and significant) risk of flying little airplanes in the first place, we also like to dig ourselves deeper by flying formation; acro; low; IFR; cross country; night; etc? We need to face up to the fact that we willingly choose risk because that?s what we like.
I think we as a society forget that additional risk is balanced by additional responsibilities in the form of increased skill and sometimes even a little luck. Some of us are going to come up short in this equation- that's life, and always has been. The best data in the world is not going to change this fact.
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WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.
Michael Robinson
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Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
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12-14-2011, 10:15 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Charlotte NC
Posts: 1,167
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I believe data and discussion on aircraft accidents is the key to preventing future incidents or accidents. I think we really need a RV accident database where you can easily view each accident and the conclusions.
I have learned a enormous amount on this website. Some if it has come from near accidents and actual accidents. Some of it has come from speculation about those accidents. Opinions on this forum tend to be well thought out. When someone posts ideas on why something occurs they may be incorrect in that instance however given the expertize on here they are correct in that it could occur. Such knowledge is invaluable in the aviation community.
That is why I don't understand all the angst when posting about a accident. We all need to learn from the mistakes of others so we don't repeat them. Learning from others can change behavior.
I will give just one quick simple example. Junior's the RV-3's off airport landing has changed my behavior on how I will be switching fuel tanks in the future. I often switched tanks at low altitudes coming back into the pattern. I now understand that I was using a very bad technique with serious consequences possible.
Discussion about safely and accidents is a good thing and needs to continue. There is not a single pilot on this forum who can't learn something from the mistakes, incidents and accidents of others.
George
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12-14-2011, 10:15 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toobuilder
This is offered as fodder for discussion, not making an argument, but how will more/better accident data improve safety if our behavior does not change?
Frankly, we have been collecting accident data for 100 years, and it is pretty clear that flying is a discretionary act that happens to carry significantly higher risk to life than sitting on the couch behind locked doors. We all know this ? yet we willingly risk our lives to fly anyway. Dissecting or distilling this fact down to the core causes may make us more informed, but for the most part, it?s obvious we?re going to keep doing what we have been doing. We will continue to run out of fuel; stall on the base to final turn; fly a perfectly good airplane into the ground and have midair collisions. We will do this, because despite widespread cries for ?safety?, we all enjoy performing ?unsafe? acts. Aside from the basic (and significant) risk of flying little airplanes in the first place, we also like to dig ourselves deeper by flying formation; acro; low; IFR; cross country; night; etc? We need to face up to the fact that we willingly choose risk because that?s what we like.
I think we as a society forget that additional risk is balanced by additional responsibilities in the form of increased skill and sometimes even a little luck. Some of us are going to come up short in this equation- that's life, and always has been. The best data in the world is not going to change this fact.
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Well said, couldnt agree more.
I know this topic has been beaten to death on here...but this is my take.
We have become a society that tries and tries and tries (the new NTSB call for a ban on 'all' cell phone communications in a moving vehicle is a good example) to remove ALL risk from our lives. That, to have a society where no one dies a premature death is somehow a desirable thing. How boring would your existence be if there was absolutely no danger in it? I dont believe there is any pilot out there that doesnt enjoy that risk to some degree, whether it is a conscious or sub-conscious thought...I know I do. Dont get me wrong, I am never wreckless with my life or others in any endeavor...but I freely admit I do enjoy the danger of the task at hand. Otherwise you would choose a different hobby. That is part of what makes flying so alluring...at least to me.
All the while, "society" is trying to remove all risk...have you noticed how popular "extreme" sports are to the average citizen today? How many people were sky diving, bungee jumping, rock climbing, etc 30 yrs ago? Only very extreme personalities engaged in such things. Here in Colorado, almost everyone I know engages in such activities and they are just normal average people...not what I would consider "extreme" personalities. Why? Because, as human beings, I believe we need some risk to feel whole...we need to push things, push the envelope maybe just a little to feel alive. As everday life becomes more safe...people are turning to other avenues to interject danger to fill a void. And, is that a bad thing? I have never, ever gotten a "rush" from sitting on my couch watching tv...but, by gosh, I was safe from risk. Danger is ok, just use good judgement and responsibility as you pursue it.
anyway, just my 0.02....fly safe! 
__________________
Ron Duren
Mechanical Engineer
"SportAir PhD"-RV Assembly/Composites/Electrical
Denver, CO (KBJC)
RV-7 'Tip Up'
Flying!! as of 3/16/14
IO-375/ WW 200G-CS/ SkyView/ Dual P-mags
N531R "Wablosa" Wings of Red
http://www.ronsrv7project.blogspot.com
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12-14-2011, 10:53 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 778
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesharacor
First off, mods please let me know if this is offensive.
I did this as professionally and accurately as possible. I downloaded the .XML file after querying the NTSB database for all accidents that were homebuilt and matched "RV" in the model descriptor.
There have been 521 accident reports regarding RV aircraft, the earliest of which is recorded as 1978.
Of the 521 accident reports, 160 of them involved fatalities. (30%)
There have been 215 fatalities associated with the 521 accident reports.
There have been 96 serious injuries, 151 minor injuries, and 301 uninjured.
Taking the data from the last 5 years, I read through all the fatal accident reports and compiled a quick summary sentence of what happened. I then classified them based on several factors.
I love data. Is there anything else that anybody would like me to analyze and report on?
Also, this is not in any way an indictment of RV's. I'm in the middle of building one, and the statistics for RV's does not vary significantly for fatal accidents from certified aircraft. This is purely taking data that already exists and making it accessible.
Disclaimer: I am not at all licensed or authorized or anything to comment on these cases. My heart goes out to all the family and friends affected by these tragic losses. If anybody does not want this on the boards, please tell me and I'd be happy to take it down. I just thought that others might be interested in these statistics.
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Rob - thanks for doing this. Its very helpful to have access to objective data upon which to build discussion of this sensitive subject. In theory anyone can pull the raw data off the NTSB web site, but it takes considerable effort to compile a complete and accurate list. Ideally it would be nice if your full table could be posted somewhere publically available, perhaps here?:
http://www.rvflightsafety.org/
__________________
Alan Carroll
RV-8 N12AC
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12-14-2011, 11:23 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 778
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toobuilder
This is offered as fodder for discussion, not making an argument, but how will more/better accident data improve safety if our behavior does not change?
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This seems like an important question. Part of the answer may be that safety is not a black vs. white issue. As a pilot I make decisions all the time about how much risk I'm willing to accept. Knowing the outcome of other people's decisions makes me better informed about the nature of those risks, and this knowledge might indeed lead to modification of my behavior. Certainly I'm glad to have the information.
Personally I'm skeptical of the view that accidents generally result from someone intentionally doing something stupid. It seems more likely that most accident pilots weren't fully aware the risks they were exposing themselves to, or what they could do to mitigate those risks. No doubt there are those who simply choose to ignore reality, but I doubt they represent the majority of accident pilots.
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Alan Carroll
RV-8 N12AC
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