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  #51  
Old 11-23-2011, 12:01 PM
Bavafa Bavafa is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cristianomc View Post
Also the primary flight instruments need to stay at the primary field of view from the pilot, at 60 degrees of the center of his eyes, 30 for the left and 30 for the right.

The Aspen PFD1000 Pro is the cheapest TSO EFIS and it?s cheapper than 7 TSO gauges. But I don?t know if the 7 gauges would fit on my primary field of view if I install it together ASF-5600.
Just for fun and ideas, all within field of view and switches oriented in a logical fashion (hard to see in this pix)

After getting some time behind this penal, I could not think of any think I wish I had done differently.


DSC_6147 by bavafa1, on Flickr
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  #52  
Old 11-23-2011, 08:30 PM
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cristianomc cristianomc is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Brantel View Post
Don't believe everything you have read in this thread or you will turn out disappointed...

For #2 above to get the AP to fail, both EFIS's would have to fail and you would still be left with a full working EFIS.

In #1 above, if both EFIS's fail, you only have a basic AP and no EFIS...
Good luck getting that on the ground!

Most stand alone AP's can't do much of anything without a fancy EFIS to enable all the magic. Lose the EFIS and your stuck with a heading holding wing leveler.

To get a full featured stand alone AP cost $$$
Got it. Thank you!
  #53  
Old 11-23-2011, 08:34 PM
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cristianomc cristianomc is offline
 
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Originally Posted by dynonsupport View Post
That's simply not true. SkyView has a terrain database that is much higher resolution than Garmin for everywhere in the world. We have a data point every 30 meters. Just go look at the size of the terrain databases. Ours is over 20GB for the whole world, while most others are under 1GB.
Man, if we don?t talk with the correct people we get wrong infos... I didn?t know that. But and about the waypoints? Thank you!
  #54  
Old 11-23-2011, 09:41 PM
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RV10inOz RV10inOz is offline
 
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Quote:
After getting some time behind this penal,


As for your panel, looks great.

Now this next comment may offend some viewers....so hide all sharp objects

It is my opinion, far too many builders are building panles for planes the size of a Boeing or Airbus, and not one for an RVx. Even for IFR operations, this is a single pilot aeroplane.

We designed ours very carefully to be not only ergonomic for the single pilot, but everything is laid out in terms of importance from left to right. For example Pitot Heat is closer than cabin lights as it is more important/frequently used than cabin lights.

I am not saying this is the only way, but have a look at how we built ours and think about the logic we used, and maybe apply this to your future builds.

http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/a...g?t=1288578844
  #55  
Old 11-24-2011, 05:56 AM
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Walt Walt is offline
 
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Location: Dallas/Ft Worth, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV10inOz View Post


As for your panel, looks great.

Now this next comment may offend some viewers....so hide all sharp objects

It is my opinion, far too many builders are building panles for planes the size of a Boeing or Airbus, and not one for an RVx. Even for IFR operations, this is a single pilot aeroplane.

We designed ours very carefully to be not only ergonomic for the single pilot, but everything is laid out in terms of importance from left to right. For example Pitot Heat is closer than cabin lights as it is more important/frequently used than cabin lights.

I am not saying this is the only way, but have a look at how we built ours and think about the logic we used, and maybe apply this to your future builds.

http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/a...g?t=1288578844
Very simple yet functional design you have there, I like it
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  #56  
Old 11-24-2011, 03:48 PM
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cristianomc cristianomc is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bavafa View Post
Just for fun and ideas, all within field of view and switches oriented in a logical fashion (hard to see in this pix)

After getting some time behind this penal, I could not think of any think I wish I had done differently.


DSC_6147 by bavafa1, on Flickr
Great panel!
  #57  
Old 11-26-2011, 02:11 PM
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akschu akschu is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akschu View Post
I wrote at length about this in another thread a while back so do a search, but here is a quick recap.

Not only is the EFIS itself important, but the AHRS (the sensor) needs to be up to snuff or it doesn't matter how nice the EFIS is. Out of all of the experimental EFIS vendors, only one uses a certified AHRS (though not certified in their install) that has the same degree of calibration as certified units. That same EFIS vendor uses ARM based processors instead of X86 processors which I believe is the right choice in this application due to the low heat, low power, passive cooling, which I believe is ultimately a more robust hardware package.

This same vendor also uses LED backlit displays, has software that integrates with other autopilots, and has had a complete IFR package since the day their new product line start shipping.

I bought one and haven't flown it in IFR conditions yet, but after playing with it and installing it, I don't suspect I'll have a problem.

schu
The Dynon support guy messaged me to let me know that the new AFS units are also x86 based. I confirmed this with Rob Hickman. I wonder why they moved away from ARM. I really liked how the unit could be passively cooled and had minimal power requirements. Rob, can you tell us a little about the engineering decision behind this? Perhaps it's less expensive, or more powerful, though you can get some pretty stinking fast ARM cpus these days.

Thanks,
schu
  #58  
Old 11-26-2011, 02:33 PM
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akschu akschu is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brantel View Post
For #2 above to get the AP to fail, both EFIS's would have to fail and you would still be left with a full working EFIS.

In #1 above, if both EFIS's fail, you only have a basic AP and no EFIS...
Good luck getting that on the ground!

Most stand alone AP's can't do much of anything without a fancy EFIS to enable all the magic. Lose the EFIS and your stuck with a heading holding wing leveler.

To get a full featured stand alone AP cost $$$
This isn't true, if you look at the skyview network cabling in the documentation they daisy chain the skyview network cables and run both ARHS units through a splitter.

If one of the skyview network cables gets pinched and it shorts the TX or RX wire to ground you could potentially loose both AHRS units and your autopilot for all displays all at the same time. Same if the power wires are shorted.

With EFIS and autopilot systems that have the AHRS and batteries integrated you cannot have that happen. A pinch in any wire in the system won't bring the entire thing down since the batteries and sensors are internal.

Look at the dynon D10 system, it works with absolutely nothing plugged into it (though you could loose whatever aiding it needs), I feel this is a bit more fault tolerant than the skyview which does depend on the cabling.

Don't forget about the software redundancy as well as different hardware specs. It's much less likely to have a software bug affect all of your systems or a heat issue cause problems with systems from multiple vendors. If you have two skyview systems installed then it's much more likely to have a software bug or an over heating issue effect both at the same time.

The Skyview is less expensive and integrates, but it's not ever going to be as fault tolerant as autonomous systems from different vendors that work together or alone. One of the competitions EFIS units combined with a tru track will give you completely different AHRS units that cannot be killed with any single cabling issue as well as different hardware specs and software. The odds of you loosing your EFIS and a trutrack are WAY lower than the odds of you loosing both of your skyview systems given the common software and cabling.

Also, last I checked the dynon doesn't have geo referenced approach plates or vertical coupling. For these reasons I feel that the other vendors provide a better IFR solution.

All this said, I think the dynon is a fine solution and wouldn't have a problem flying behind one at all if the install is well done, however I don't agree with the technical argument that they are just as fault tolerant. I write software for a living and know that software that deals with fault tolerance adds another mode of failure to the system. If you have another complete system that you can manually switch to, that tends to be much more stable if you can live with the downtime waiting for the tech to switch things over, which in an airplane isn't a big deal.

These comments are worth exactly what you paid for them.... nothing.... so if you disagree that's fine. Fly what you like and be happy.

schu
  #59  
Old 11-26-2011, 02:55 PM
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Brantel Brantel is offline
 
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I can "what if" a dozen failure modes that can take out any of these systems.

Your understanding of the Dynon Skyview setup is not correct. You left out the fact that there is a redundant DSAB bus and each screen has its own backup power. There is also no TX or RX wires on the Dynon DSAB bus. It is a 3 wire half duplex RS-485 differential based network (bi-directional)..

Anyway I could have been talking about GRT and their integrated AP...

By the way the TT AP does not have a AHRS in it.

Oh and #2 above does have a fully Internally integrated stand alone EFIS included. Lose all the Skyview or GRT stuff and you still have a full working EFIS running different code on different hardware.

The point is there is always more than one way to skin a cat and provide the same or better redundancy. The beauty of it is we can make up our own minds on what we want to purchase. The problem comes in when people provide bad, misleading, obsolete or just plain wrong information to those seeking answers.

My advice to others is do your own research and stop asking others for their biased opinions.....there is nothing wrong with any of the mainstream choices available right now. Find the one that meets your mission and budget and be happy!
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Last edited by Brantel : 11-26-2011 at 03:36 PM.
  #60  
Old 11-26-2011, 04:23 PM
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cristianomc cristianomc is offline
 
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Location: Brazil
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Exclamation Almost done

I?m loving to plan my Explorer panel but I confess, I?m also exausted...

Well, between Dynon and AFS I decided to go with AFS. But I checked the G500 option and the price diference on the 2 configs below is not big, so I need to decide this. I changed my price tag to $42k because importing taxes to Brazil. I also find the Cobham (or S-tec or Chelton) very good, but could not find any price for the IDU-680, etc. Does anyone knows about this brand? Your toughts are welcome! Thank you all!


#1: Garmin:


A) TSO instruments:
1- Davtron Instruments 811B-12 Clock/Chronometer - $399.00
2- Sirs NV-2C-4000 Compass (blue lighted) - $225.00
3- Dynon Pitot Probe Heated - $450.00
TOTAL: $1,074.00

B) Non TSO instruments:
1- Westach Quad Gauge 3 1/8" Exhaust Gas Temperature 3AQ2 - $361.00
2- Westach Quad Gauge 3 1/8" Cylinder Head Temperature 3AQ1 - $308.00
TOTAL: $669.00

C) TSO antennas:
1- Comant Ci 120-400 VOR/LOC/GPS antenna - $997.00
2- Comant Ci 2480-400 VHF/GPS/XM antenna - $987.00
3- Comant Ci 105-6 DME/XPDR antenna - $273.95
TOTAL: $2,257.95

D) TSO avionics:
1- Garmin SL-30 COM - $3,679.00
2- Garmin G500 - $13,989.00
3- Garmin GAD43 - $2,650.00
4- PS Engineering Audio Panel PMA-8000BT - $1,795.00
5- Garmin GTX-327 - $1,795.00
TOTAL: $23,908.00

E) Non TSO avionics:
1- Vertical Power VP-200 (with cables) - $7,045.00
2- Trutrak Digiflight II VSGV - $3,850.00
3- Trutrak Autotrim - $325.00
TOTAL: $11,220.00
GLOBAL TOTAL: $39,128.95


#2: AFS:


A) TSO instruments:
1- Davtron Instruments 811B-12 Clock/Chronometer - $399.00
2- Sirs NV-2C-4000 Compass (blue lighted) - $225.00
3- Dynon Pitot Probe Heated - $450.00
TOTAL: $1,074.00

B) Non TSO instruments:
1- Westach Quad Gauge 3 1/8" Exhaust Gas Temperature 3AQ2 - $361.00
2- Westach Quad Gauge 3 1/8" Cylinder Head Temperature 3AQ1 - $308.00
TOTAL: $669.00

C) TSO antennas:
1- Comant Ci 120-400 VOR/LOC/GPS antenna - $997.00
2- Comant Ci 2480-400 VHF/GPS/XM antenna - $987.00
3- Comant Ci 105-6 DME/XPDR antenna - $273.95
TOTAL: $2,257.95

D) TSO avionics:
1- Garmin SL-30 COM - $3,679.00
2- Aspen EDF 1000 Pro - $9,995.00
3- PS Engineering Audio Panel PMA-8000BT - $1,795.00
4- Garmin GTX-327 - $1,795.00
TOTAL: $17,264.00

E) Non TSO avionics:
1- Vertical Power VP-X (with cables) - $1,789.00
2- Trutrak Digiflight II VSGV - $3,850.00
3- Trutrak Autotrim - $325.00
4- Dynon Skyview-GPS-250 GPS Receiver and Antenna - $200.00
5- Advanced Flight Systems AF-5600 package - $14,100.00
TOTAL: $20,264.00
GLOBAL TOTAL: $41,528.95
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