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11-22-2011, 04:32 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Woodinville, WA
Posts: 1,499
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Cristianomc,
Do you need a whole certified airspeed and altimeter as well? I ask because you can get an electronic, TSO'd attitude indicator for $2600. If that meets your IFR requirements in Brazil that might free your budget up a but for whatever EFIS you choose.
To all others:
SkyView now outputs the bugs and data required for an external autopilot to follow our commands if they want. The data format is published in our install manual. We've told TruTrak and Trio about this. If you're a Dynon customer and really want to use a different autopilot, you can bug your AP vendor to add support for our system.
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11-22-2011, 05:59 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Newport, TN
Posts: 7,496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dynonsupport
SkyView now outputs the bugs and data required for an external autopilot to follow our commands if they want. The data format is published in our install manual. We've told TruTrak and Trio about this. If you're a Dynon customer and really want to use a different autopilot, you can bug your AP vendor to add support for our system.
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Why would I want to do that when I can get an EFIS/AP redundancy solution that gives me a full backup EFIS in the deal for less $ than the least expensive stand alone AP on the market? This does not even factor in the AP feature list.....
Lets see:
EFIS #1, AHRS
EFIS #2, AHRS
Stand alone AP, track and bank angle in stand alone mode, alt hold for more $$
Or
EFIS #1 with full reversionary support to Dual External AHRS and built in full featured AP
EFIS #2 with full reversionary support to Dual External AHRS and built in full featured AP
EFIS #3 with its own AHRS for less than inexpensive stand alone AP
Which one provides more redundancy?
Last edited by Brantel : 11-22-2011 at 06:26 PM.
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11-23-2011, 07:04 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Brazil
Posts: 46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwtalbot
I think you have to remember the lead time between someone purchasing an EFIS and flying IFR. I purchased my AFS 4500 in the initial batch (before Rob released at Oshkosh). At that time it was clear that AFS were the leader. They had the best screen, best AHARS, best user interface etc. Rob has always said his products were designed for IFR - Dynon has not. Today the world is a bit different with Skyview on the scene.
My point is that in order to have experience flying behind this stuff in the soup takes time. In my case probably at least two years from purchase to flying, then some time to bed the aircraft and pilot in before I flew any night/IFR. IFR flying requires a complete aircraft system, which works together to fly safely. The EFIS is a small part of that. If you keep that in mind you will easily build a capable IFR ship with your budget.
I now have 3 years and over 350 hours in my 7A. I regularly fly IFR in IFR conditions. I sat my CIR SE initial issue (for the second time) in the aircraft and have approvals for Night, ILS, VOR, RNAV and DGE (We don't have LPV approaches here in Australia).
For what it's worth, the equipment in my panel consists of:
? AFS 4500s (upgraded around 9 months ago)
? Garmin 430W
? Garmin SL30 Com
? Garmin Audio Panel
? Garmin GTX 330 ES (ADS-B compliant transponder), with Ameriking Encoder
? Garmin CDI
? Trutrak VSGV with close to the latest firmware (I did not upgrade to the AFS unit due to feature limitations)
? WX-500 Stormscope (purchased second hand on EBay and installed)
? Backup steam gauges: Vans ASI, ALT, United 2.5" VSI, Trutrak electronic TC, Vertical Card Compass.
My main comments are:
The AFS is rock solid, 4500 and 4500s have never let me down in the air, more importantly it wouldn?t be a significant problem if they did. The new 4500s is an improvement with the dual knobs and joystick allowing much better control of the bugs/autopilot. The synthetic vision is not that great using Australian data. It may be better in the US.
Having the AFS HSI on screen and the CDI allows you to display GPS and VOR at the same time on either unit. This is helpful for intercepting VOR radials while using GPS guidance.
The Trutrak VSGV is a necessary item and I would never consider using a system which consists of servos attached to the EFIS. At minimum I can put it in heading/alt hold mode. Consider not mounting the AP disconnect switch to your stick and/or putting in an annunciator for the AP. It is not so funny when you bump the disconnect switch in IMC, even if you notice pretty quickly. I do not have auto-trim. That was a safety decision and I have never needed it. Sorcerer would be wasted with my setup as the AFS + VSGV can do everything you need.
I am 100% happy with my back up steam gauges.
The WX-500 is one of the best investments I made. In Australia we do not have NEXRAD and the WX-500 gives me the confidence to launch on days where ISOL TS are forecast. The AFS EFIS provides the heading output required by the WX-500 to plot strikes correctly, which are displayed on the 430W.
As Rob said, the AFS cannot display strike data on the map. I do not own a map license (I have tested it). With only one EFIS screen I did not like all that data displayed at the same time. What works for a VFR pilot, will quickly overwhelm an IFR pilot in IMC/turbulence so I doubt I would use it even if the AFS supported it. Also, the data is somewhat limited in this part of the world. In Australia we have cheap 3G Internet which makes weather data available on an iPad. The iPad mapping and approach plate systems are far cheaper and more capable than most of the EFIS maps.
IMO traffic is a luxury under the IFR. Nice to have but heavy and expensive unless you live in the US and can receive it from ADS-B, UAT or the radar site.
Remember at the end of the day, you cannot fly through ice in an RV. Flying approaches to the minima is not something to do lightly. No matter how much money you spend there are days when you may need to launch VFR and keep out of the weather/ice using your eyes and/or not go at all.
I can?t help with Skyview. I have seen one, but not flown behind it. They are competitive on price and for a VFR / NVFR ship it would be hard to beat. However, my preference for IFR would still be AFS.
Lastly, customer service and warranty support are important. Both AFS and Trutrak have been outstanding. Garmin, more particularly their local dealer, not so much. I can't speak to the others.
Cheers
Richard
Rv-7A - Flying,
Sydney Australia
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Thanks, Richard!
I decided that I also need TSO gauges!
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11-23-2011, 07:07 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Brazil
Posts: 46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhall_polo
Adding to the pile.
I have a 3 years flying with AF3500, GNS430W, SL40, GTX330, PS8000, and WXWorks/XM weather. For AP, I've flown with both trutrak dgvs and the afs trutrak (almost the same). It took me a while to adjust to the button changes on the latter, but both work fine.
I bought the AFS back before they had moving map, synthetic, etc. Unlike everything else in my panel, it only got better and better over the years. The support has always been top notch. Last winter, I took the panel out and rewired the AF3500 to take advantage of all the integration with the GNS430, stuff that wasn't possible back in the build. While I was at it, I also added an AP selector switch so I can let the Garmin or AFS drive me around. Fantastic! Everything works together as well as I'd hoped. I'm (non-current) instrument rated, and I've done coupled practice approaches with no issue. I use the flight director capability on every cross country. Rob's youtube videos are pretty representative of what to expect.
Boa Sorte.
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Thank you!
By the way I heard that the best synthetic vision for Brazil is from Garmin because it?s databases is more complete thanthe other (for Brazil).
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11-23-2011, 07:14 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Brazil
Posts: 46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akschu
I wrote at length about this in another thread a while back so do a search, but here is a quick recap.
Not only is the EFIS itself important, but the AHRS (the sensor) needs to be up to snuff or it doesn't matter how nice the EFIS is. Out of all of the experimental EFIS vendors, only one uses a certified AHRS (though not certified in their install) that has the same degree of calibration as certified units. That same EFIS vendor uses ARM based processors instead of X86 processors which I believe is the right choice in this application due to the low heat, low power, passive cooling, which I believe is ultimately a more robust hardware package.
This same vendor also uses LED backlit displays, has software that integrates with other autopilots, and has had a complete IFR package since the day their new product line start shipping.
I bought one and haven't flown it in IFR conditions yet, but after playing with it and installing it, I don't suspect I'll have a problem.
schu
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Thank you!
Which is the vendor you?re talking about?
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11-23-2011, 07:32 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Brazil
Posts: 46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dynonsupport
Cristianomc,
Do you need a whole certified airspeed and altimeter as well? I ask because you can get an electronic, TSO'd attitude indicator for $2600. If that meets your IFR requirements in Brazil that might free your budget up a but for whatever EFIS you choose.
To all others:
SkyView now outputs the bugs and data required for an external autopilot to follow our commands if they want. The data format is published in our install manual. We've told TruTrak and Trio about this. If you're a Dynon customer and really want to use a different autopilot, you can bug your AP vendor to add support for our system.
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To obtain IFR certification I need a TSO EFIS with AS, ALT, VS, ATI, Gyro, T&B, ADF, and a XPNDR, NAV/COM, autop?lot (I as knew yesterday), plus TSO cables and TSO external lights, or, TSO gauges for AS, ALT, VS, ATI, Gyro, T&B, ADF and the autopilot, XPNDR, NAV/COM, plus TSO cables and TSO external lights.
Also the primary flight instruments need to stay at the primary field of view from the pilot, at 60 degrees of the center of his eyes, 30 for the left and 30 for the right.
The Aspen PFD1000 Pro is the cheapest TSO EFIS and it?s cheapper than 7 TSO gauges. But I don?t know if the 7 gauges would fit on my primary field of view if I install it together ASF-5600.
I also still didn?t decided if I?ll place these all the 7 gauges together the EFIS... maybe it?s a exaggerate! But I want security!
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11-23-2011, 07:38 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Brazil
Posts: 46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brantel
Why would I want to do that when I can get an EFIS/AP redundancy solution that gives me a full backup EFIS in the deal for less $ than the least expensive stand alone AP on the market? This does not even factor in the AP feature list.....
Lets see:
EFIS #1, AHRS
EFIS #2, AHRS
Stand alone AP, track and bank angle in stand alone mode, alt hold for more $$
Or
EFIS #1 with full reversionary support to Dual External AHRS and built in full featured AP
EFIS #2 with full reversionary support to Dual External AHRS and built in full featured AP
EFIS #3 with its own AHRS for less than inexpensive stand alone AP
Which one provides more redundancy?
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I would keep the first! As already discussed in this thread, built in autopilots aren?t a good option because if you loose your EFIS you also loose the AP.
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11-23-2011, 08:23 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Newport, TN
Posts: 7,496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cristianomc
I would keep the first! As already discussed in this thread, built in autopilots aren?t a good option because if you loose your EFIS you also loose the AP.
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Don't believe everything you have read in this thread or you will turn out disappointed...
For #2 above to get the AP to fail, both EFIS's would have to fail and you would still be left with a full working EFIS.
In #1 above, if both EFIS's fail, you only have a basic AP and no EFIS...
Good luck getting that on the ground!
Most stand alone AP's can't do much of anything without a fancy EFIS to enable all the magic. Lose the EFIS and your stuck with a heading holding wing leveler.
To get a full featured stand alone AP cost $$$
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11-23-2011, 08:23 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Woodinville, WA
Posts: 1,499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cristianomc
Thank you!
By the way I heard that the best synthetic vision for Brazil is from Garmin because it?s databases is more complete thanthe other (for Brazil).
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That's simply not true. SkyView has a terrain database that is much higher resolution than Garmin for everywhere in the world. We have a data point every 30 meters. Just go look at the size of the terrain databases. Ours is over 20GB for the whole world, while most others are under 1GB.
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11-23-2011, 11:35 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Woodinville, WA
Posts: 1,499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akschu
That same EFIS vendor uses ARM based processors instead of X86 processors which I believe is the right choice in this application due to the low heat, low power, passive cooling, which I believe is ultimately a more robust hardware package.
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If ARM based and 100% passively cooled are requirements for you, neither the SkyView or the AFS-5600 is the product for you, as they both have fans on the back.
In the case of SkyView, the fans are for reliability, as the product will run without failure at over 50C even if the fans are broken. The only reason we have two fans is so that if one fails you have a backup.
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