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11-14-2011, 09:11 AM
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Super Moderator
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Locust Grove, GA
Posts: 2,626
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You may not want to hear this, but calibrating your angle of attack meter is not required during Phase I. Some things may need to be left alone until you can certify that the aircraft has no known hazardous characteristics, which is the explicit purpose of the Phase I fly off period.
This includes things such as flights at max gross weight. Some people try to justify that by putting people in it. I assure you that the Big Boys (Boeing, etc.) don't test max gross weights by adding people during the test programs. Pretty hard to justify, again.
And if you aren't capable of building your own airplane, then you can write the check for the certified airplane and have it built to your equipment specs as they allow or buy an amateur-built aircraft that's for sale. There are certainly opportunities out there for each of those alternatives.
Vic
__________________
 Vic Syracuse
Built RV-4, RV-6, 2-RV-10's, RV-7A, RV-8, Prescott Pusher, Kitfox Model II, Kitfox Speedster, Kitfox 7 Super Sport, Just Superstol, DAR, A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor, CFII-ASMEL/ASES
Kitplanes "Unairworthy" monthly feature
EAA Sport Aviation "Checkpoints" column
EAA Homebuilt Council Chair/member EAA BOD
Author "Pre-Buy Guide for Amateur-Built Aircraft"
www.Baselegaviation.com
Last edited by vic syracuse : 11-14-2011 at 09:11 AM.
Reason: spelling
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11-14-2011, 09:22 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az_gila
Many comments above talk about a grey area... however, if this really is the FAA defining documentation -
(1) Carrying Passengers. You may not carry passengers while you are restricted to the flight test area or during any portion of your phase I flight test program. We suggest you use a tape or video recorder for recording readings and other similar tasks. If you need an additional crewmember for a particular flight test, specify that in your application program letter for the airworthiness certificate. We will list this need in your operating limitations.
It doesn't sound very "grey" to me.
Tell the FAA what you need to do, they will add it to the Operating Limitations - then make all of your flights in accordance with your Operating Limitations as per the FARs... 
I say it's quite black and white.
Any DAR comments about adding tests requiring a second crew member?
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Even though this statement may appear in AC 20-27 (advisory circulars are not binding), it is NOT in the Order 8130.2 (which is what we must adhere to).
I don't know of any DAR who would accept the liability of allowing a second person during phase I flight testing in the type airplanes we a talking about.
__________________
Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
Last edited by Mel : 11-14-2011 at 09:28 AM.
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11-14-2011, 09:25 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 359
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WRONG
Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketbob
My $.02...builders for hire are a good thing. Not everyone is equipped mentally to build their own airplane, and if they have the financial freedom to be able to write a big check for someone to build their airplane, more power to them. The Canadians have this figured out from a rules perspective. Why don't we here in the US?
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I'm sorry but this is just plain WRONG. DEAD WRONG.
You want a rule to do build for hire, fine, go lobby the FAA to make it legal. Good Luck. But encouraging build for hire, 2 weeks to taxi, etc... is just flagrantly misusing the amateur built rule. Keep this behavior up and we stand a good chance of losing the privilege (it is a privilege after all) altogether.
Not prepared mentally to build, fine, go buy a used one, there are plenty of good used RV's for sale. Or go buy a Cessna.
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David Edgemon
RV-9A N42DE
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11-14-2011, 09:32 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 8I3
Posts: 3,564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vic syracuse
And if you aren't capable of building your own airplane, then you can write the check for the certified airplane and have it built to your equipment specs as they allow or buy an amateur-built aircraft that's for sale. There are certainly opportunities out there for each of those alternatives.
Vic
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I completely disagree. There are many builders for hire and customers alike that I wholeheartedly support in being a part of our hobby, especially during the building process. Having these folks in the in our community is far better than not having them in the mix.
I'll quote the Transport Canada rule regarding this:
"2.2 Amongst other things, the exemption allows persons who apply for a special certificate of airworthiness in the amateur-built classification to contract for professional assistance in the construction or assembly of parts of the aircraft, provided the work is subject to the builder's overall control. The intent of this provision in the revised standard is to allow a builder to seek assistance with the construction of those parts of the aircraft where the builder does not feel competent."
Seems awful reasonable to me.
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Bob Japundza CFI A&PIA
N9187P PA-24-260B Comanche, flying
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Not a thing I own is stock.
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11-14-2011, 09:35 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 359
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Then go license your airplane in Canada or help get a rule like that in the US.
Quit trying to rationalize what is clearly against the reg! Whether you think its good for us all or not.
__________________
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David Edgemon
RV-9A N42DE
RV-8 N48DE
whats next ??
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11-14-2011, 09:47 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,179
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Builder for hire vs build and sell
Hi Vic
I've seen a continuum from self built planes all the way to "almost commercial ventures". The Lance Air IVP's were frequent instances of the latter.
So, where does the guy fall in your view who builds an AHB kit with the intent of selling it after Phase I?
I ask because there are those who just love to build and once it's done they sell so they can build again and do so knowingly. There are those who also build to sell and do so knowingly. And I don't think anyone could tell the two apart.
And for full disclosure, I knew I was not the builder type so I bought a finished RV-8 with about 100hrs on it.
Last edited by humptybump : 11-14-2011 at 09:49 AM.
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11-14-2011, 09:58 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Waller, Texas
Posts: 146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dedgemon
I'm sorry but this is just plain WRONG. DEAD WRONG.
You want a rule to do build for hire, fine, go lobby the FAA to make it legal. Good Luck. But encouraging build for hire, 2 weeks to taxi, etc... is just flagrantly misusing the amateur built rule. Keep this behavior up and we stand a good chance of losing the privilege (it is a privilege after all) altogether.
Not prepared mentally to build, fine, go buy a used one, there are plenty of good used RV's for sale. Or go buy a Cessna.
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I Agree!
Don't we already have a rule for building airplanes for hire? It's called CFR 14 Part 23. The amateur built rules aren't there so that rich guys can turn money into any airplane that they choose. It's there to give those of us who LOVE to BUILD airplanes the freedom to do so. If you want one already built for you, go to the Cessna store and pick one.
Yes, the part 23 standards and procedures are difficult, costly and tend to stifle innovation in design, but those are the problems that need to be fixed. Lower the cost of admission and you may see something that resembles an RV-10 on a production line, but skirting the amateur built rules will just make it worse in the long run.
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Phil Birkelbach
RV-7 727WB - Flying
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11-14-2011, 10:14 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oakland CA
Posts: 771
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Regarding AOA calibrating, mine was VERY close straight out of the box...I think its default calibration was designed around the RVs. That said, I waited until I was out of Phase 1 and had a friend help me with the calibration. After a lot of futzing I think we ended up very close to where it was originally
Regarding more than 1 person during Phase 1, I actually had to deal with a couple of people trying to ENCOURAGE me to have them help "train" me in the aircraft during Phase 1, even though I went through transition training, and was comfortable with flying Phase 1. I guess I don't swagger enough around the airport... Or maybe the fact that I had someone else do the first flight was misinterpreted as me lacking confidence in my skills. Even when I made it clear that I, the FAA, and my insurance company all felt this was neither the letter NOR THE SPIRIT of the language, there was reluctance to let it go. The good news was that it was entirely my call to make and it was easy. I finally put an end to the pressure by stating that in my view, if I or anyone else needs a second crew member for Phase 1 in any RV, the aircraft needs to be placarded "2 crewmembers required" for the life of the aircraft.
The "data acquisition" arguement is a bit like listening to a kid try to justify why he did something that he knew was a bad idea, but I went through the same thought process before realizing what it was sounding like. Let's face it, there are way too many folks not doing ANY actual flight testing during Phase 1. There's just "flying off the hours". Their first experiment in envelope expansion is inadvertantly discovering that the plane handles differently with your wife in the passenger seat and your 8 year old child and baggage in the baggage compartment of a two seater.  Yeah, we heard about it after the fact. It's a testament to Vans design but you can't have it both ways: so easy you don't do any testing, but so compicated you need a second person for data acquisition.
I know you can't fix stupid and that people who tend to feel the rules don't apply to them will still disregard the rules, but I think that there are degrees of rebelious behaviour. I think there are some people who are absolutist: either legal or illegal. There are others who see in shades of gray and of those there is a spectrum of folks who explore pushing the boundaries. A lot of us have played tennis with people who are forever arguing about whether the ball was in or not, doing it as a tactic to "win". I think what we're trying to do here is dust off the boundary lines. We have a fantastic referree for boundary calls...thanks Mel!!
GREAT Discussion...thanks Vic!!!!!
Jeremy Constant
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11-14-2011, 10:34 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Big Sandy, WY
Posts: 2,567
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To calibrate my AOA all I had to do is fly to a stall and push a button. No calculus or wire twisting required. I don't think I needed extra "epaulets" on board to do that. How hard can it be? I'm with Vic on this one for sure. The rules are specific, and as a community we need to hang together or hang separately.
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11-14-2011, 10:48 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dedgemon
Then go license your airplane in Canada or help get a rule like that in the US.
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Exactly what I suggested. I agree completely, professional building isn't currently allowed within the structure of the rules we have. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have a place in aviation.
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