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  #31  
Old 08-20-2011, 10:01 PM
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az_gila az_gila is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Hatch View Post
I just want to jump in here in the hopes of imparting some experience about what the FAA's position is on low passes, sharp pull ups, etc.

We have a situation here in central Florida in one of our aviation communities where there is one individual who apparently takes great pleasure in turning folks into the FAA for certain activities at his home field. Those of us here know about this situation and stay away from this field or at the very least we are forewarned about the potential consequences. This guy will sit out in his yard with his video camera and film anyone who makes a low pass, non-standard pattern, etc. He then files a complaint at the Orlando FSDO and sends them the video. There have been numerous violations issued because of this individual--some are legitimate, others borderline, but who needs this? The FAA takes the position that if they receive a complaint, they must act, and oftentimes it results in a violation under the "careless and reckless" category, if not outright aerobatics. So, there you have it, we have documented cases here where the FAA will violate someone for a low pass. Their position is that this is "careless and reckless" operation, albeit usually someone has to issue a well documented complaint before they will issue a violation.

I guess what I would take away from this is that anytime you make a low pass and high-g pullup, or just a low pass, you are potentially risking your ticket. Most times you will get away with it, but why risk getting into a hassle with the FAA?

I hope this information will help someone avoid a potential problem some day!
Thanks Pat,

I have had to deal with two noise/low flight complaints from an airpark neighbor in the last month. The first went straight to the FSDO, but at least he called me directly for the second complaint. These are the first official complaints we have had for 6+ years.

Both boiled down to a combination of low passes/non-standard patterns.

What might be legal (or possibly in a grey area) might also not go down well with airport neighbors - and they are the ones that can shut us down as airports.

Also, thanks Glenn for the reminder to "Fly Neighborly" - what appears to you like a good, safe pull-up might easily get reported by a neighbor as aerobatic flight. It's an argument with the FAA we just don't need to have.
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  #32  
Old 08-20-2011, 10:15 PM
Christopher Murphy Christopher Murphy is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: colorado
Posts: 873
Default so you want to make so low passes?

Bring your RV to the Tennessee Valley Air Race and Pumpkin Speed Dash on Oct 29th. The airspace is waivered and if you get briefed, you can make several low passes. We will clock you and record your average speed. Other aviation enthusiasts will be watching. Someone will probably video your passes for later enjoyment. Enter the cross country race and compete for one of several cash prizes being provided by Aircraft Spruce and Specialties. After the racing is over, you can try to win a cash prize pot by dropping a pumpkin onto an outhouse. ( we have a cessna you can use for that).

CM
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  #33  
Old 08-20-2011, 10:34 PM
bkc3921 bkc3921 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: DuBois,Il
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Default Thank Goodness for Reason

Glad that guys like Paul, Mel, Jamie, and Pat Hatch offer a voice of reason and I agree with all of you. Careless operation in an around an airport, including low passes, is just asking for trouble...and a visit from the FAA.

It seems that there are 2 types of pilots: Those who get into aviation because they like the freedom of the air, altitude and the peaceful feeling of seeing this hectic world from above..and those that get into aviation for the sole purpose of impressing their social friends on the ground with feats of adrenaline induced daring. I know which type of pilot I am striving to be...and which kind I like to avoid.

In my opinion (which is only worth what you paid for it!), if you are not a commercial airshow performer engaged in your business, any aviation maneuver executed primarily for the enjoyment of someone on the ground, is a step away from goodness, probably illegal, and likely dangerous to yourself and other aviators.
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Last edited by bkc3921 : 08-20-2011 at 10:55 PM. Reason: Added a missing word
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  #34  
Old 08-20-2011, 11:30 PM
Huck Huck is offline
 
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Location: Birmingham AL
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Default

I used to do low passes.

Then I lost a friend to one. He died in front of his son and a bunch of friends.

Won't bore you with the details but just remember that you can stall an aircraft before you over-g it at certain speeds.

I love to see pilots who are masters of their machines and can make them look good down low. But I don't do it anymore.
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  #35  
Old 08-21-2011, 12:11 AM
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RVG8tor RVG8tor is offline
 
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Default Closed pull up

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbrasch View Post
Lots of talk here about overhead approaches. My initial post described the pilot doing a low pass at less that 100' AGL....
What you described in your first post was called "pulling closed" (Pull up to closed downwind), at a towered airport you would "Request Closed" if approved you do a climbing turn to downwind,this maneuver might be perceived as aggressive. After a low approach one advances power (usually full) to accelerate in a slight climb gaining airspeed to trade off for altitude during the pull up to downwind.

This is not a show boat maneuver, the person you saw may actually be in the military and was flying their RV that day. They more than likely are familiar with this type of pattern.

Now I am not saying this was the correct pattern at a noise sensitive airport, NOTAMs should provide any restrictions as far as airspeeds and patterns are concerned.

I hope this sheds a little knowledge about what you witnessed, I was not there so it may in fact have been a bit non standard but what you describe in the first post sounds like they "pulled closed".

Cheers
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  #36  
Old 08-21-2011, 03:26 AM
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rv8ch rv8ch is offline
 
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Default Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVG8tor View Post
What you described in your first post was called "pulling closed" (Pull up to closed downwind), at a towered airport you would "Request Closed" if approved you do a climbing turn to downwind,this maneuver might be perceived as aggressive. After a low approach one advances power (usually full) to accelerate in a slight climb gaining airspeed to trade off for altitude during the pull up to downwind.

This is not a show boat maneuver, the person you saw may actually be in the military and was flying their RV that day. They more than likely are familiar with this type of pattern.

Now I am not saying this was the correct pattern at a noise sensitive airport, NOTAMs should provide any restrictions as far as airspeeds and patterns are concerned.

I hope this sheds a little knowledge about what you witnessed, I was not there so it may in fact have been a bit non standard but what you describe in the first post sounds like they "pulled closed".

Cheers
Thanks Nemo - I learned something new today, which means it's another great day!
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  #37  
Old 08-21-2011, 06:07 AM
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Pat Hatch Pat Hatch is offline
 
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Location: Vero Beach, FL
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Default Further thoughts on low passes...

Yes, I used to do low passes too. (This is beginning to sound like an AA meeting!)

In the early days of RVs when they were still a rare sighting, I would get asked a lot to make a low pass. I remember one day flying on a cross-country in my RV-4 when I got a call from Lancaster tower in PA (I was transitioning their airspace), and they asked if I would make a low pass down their runway so they could see an RV up close. Of course I obliged, you would too, probably. No big deal. Then I would be at a local fly-in or breakfast, and I would get asked to make a low pass on departure for the "folks." So I would do it, right?

But then I got to thinking, especially when I would observe other RVs doing it, wow, that looks kind of unprofessional from this perspective on the ground. When I heard about the FAA violations for "careless and reckless" low passes, I just decided that I didn't want to add to the general malaise arising about RV guys being hot dogs anymore. Keep in mind, this was years ago. Now I see that there is indeed a lot of bad feeling out there about RV's as evidenced by the thread last week on the AOPA Red Board. A lot of it was misplaced, could be a product of envy, some bullying, but also some of it legit. Time to face the music about this. I would just say, to the extent that you might be contributing to this malaise, please just re-think the issue in light of this perhaps undeserved reputation that we seem to be getting.

The other side of this is that we have our airplanes because they are fun and give us a sense of freedom. I would never want to discourage that. We just need to balance this a little against what perceptions we may be creating out there. That is, if you care. I think you do.
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  #38  
Old 08-21-2011, 07:52 AM
sf3543 sf3543 is offline
 
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Location: San Antonio, TX
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Default Not just RVs

Low passes and hotdog flying is not just a phenomenon confined to RVs. I will admit, however that the power and speed of the RVs bring more attention to them.
Anyone who has attended the Recklaw fly in in north Texas every October can see just about every type of plane doing endless low passes. So much so that it is difficult to even get in or leave the airport.
Last time I was there, although there were some RV passes, most were done by other types. There was a bonanza and cardinal that wouldn't quit, being particularly dangerous to themselves and everyone else.
Whether we like it or not, our RVs stand out in the crowd and as a result, we are often thrown into the role of aviation ambassador, if you will, and our actions often speak for us. Sometimes good, sometimesnot so good, often depending on who is watching.
Good judgement is key in safe flying, but no atter what you do, you can't please everyone all the time.
As for me, I like to see a good pass down the runway, if its appropriate and safely done, but I don't like to see buzz jobs, especially done on the spur of the moment.
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  #39  
Old 08-21-2011, 08:15 AM
paul330 paul330 is offline
 
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Default

I hesitate to get involved in this discussion as a non-USA citizen. However, I think I have some credentials - 2500hrs RAF including 1500hrs F4, QFI,IRE 15,000hrs total, L1011, A330, A340, B747, IRE/TRE..... So, I think I have some kudos to express an opinion.

There seem to be 3 issues:

Why do it?
Is it legal?
Is it sensible?

The low level pitch into the circuit is known in the RAF as a "run and break". The idea was to approach the airfield low-level and pitch into the circuit to avoid SAM threats etc. Even when I was in the RAF (1988) this was already becoming obsolete due to local airfield defenses - come in fast and low and you risk getting shot down as a threat. So, you came in in designated corridors, at low speed. In any case, in normal operation, it was never below 250' and most times due to local noise abatement, not below 500'.

In the UK, you are not permitted to fly within 500' of the ground, any object or aircraft unless on T/O or an approach to land. There are exceptions for formation or display flying. I don't know what the USA rules are but I guess they are similar. Hence the 100' run and break would be illegal in UK. Of course, you can dress it up as a low appproach and go-around.........

Low level and display flying require specific training. Anyone who thinks they can "beat up" an airfield at 100' without training seriously needs to think again. They simply don't know what they need to know . Even pilots who are trained to fly such manouevres screw up with a regularity that you wouldn't think possible - don't do it - please! With all my experience, I wouldn't do it. Now, the pilot involved may well have been military trained but in a civilain environment, it's still not something I would do. OK, I am going to labour the point here. Unauthorized, low level , unplanned, non-practiced beat ups are dangerous and not acceptable. Not only do you put yourself at risk, but you denigrade the whole GA community, whatever country.

Now, the level 1000' pitch into an oval circuit is a different matter and, I believe is the easiest, safest and most efficient way of joining a circuit and landing. I haven't flown light aircraft for 25 years and when I finish building and fly I know that the spam-can flying huge circuits is going to annoy me immensely.....
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  #40  
Old 08-21-2011, 09:49 AM
Lux Wrangler Lux Wrangler is offline
 
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Default Those must have been halcyon days

Quote:
Does anyone remember the days when you could come to VAF and read respectfully submitted opinions, clearly stated facts, and honest, open discussions - without all the emotions, all the **** (which means that you can't think of a decent word), and all of the clearly "oh yeah, who's going to make me!!" bullying behavior? - Ironflight
No, but I've only been reading this site for about eight years or so. When were those halcyon days? they sound great!
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