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08-15-2011, 06:40 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,275
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1) Enter the pattern at 150 knots? I try to be closer to 100 mph.
2) No way will I follow students flying a bomber pattern just to be "consistent."
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08-15-2011, 07:41 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: na
Posts: 1,457
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Not within gliding distance??
Holy cow..really? Don't fly within gliding distance of the runway just so you can be like everyone else? Huh???
No way, no how am I flying like that. I trust my machine implicitly but it is still a machine and can break. I'm not going to lawn dart myself into an oak tree because some guy wants to extend 3 miles on downwind. Every plane has its own envelope and should be flown accordingly not to some arbitrary track in the sky set by the guy who happens to be ahead of you. I can't speak for anyone else but I'm more than capable of looking left, right and in front for traffic in the pattern and in fact I find it far easier to spot aircraft with some degree of angle off the nose rather than in trail. Additionally angle off is far easier to determine speed differential as it manifests as a bearing shift. Engine failure mid-field downwind in my BD-4 due to electronic ignition failure resulted in a non-event dead stick landing to the runway only because I was within EASY glide distance which was about half the size of the standard C152 pattern. Had I flown otherwise I likely wouldn't be writing this annoying diatribe due to hostile terrain....
It was stated in a previous post - anticipate early, slow down, s-turn on downwind, do a 360, climb if it makes sense, whatever it takes to maintain an interval which allows you to fly your plane the way you need to ensure a safe landing - and by all means COMMUNICATE your intentions. The desire to be courteous shouldn't trump the need for your own safety or force you to accept more risk - radios work well for this.
The only time I have power off the idle stop from the 180 to touch down is when I screwed it up (which is about half the time).
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08-15-2011, 07:50 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8RV
My next question was, "Why is my engine at greater risk of dying in a traffic pattern than 10 miles out? Or 20?" As one who has an inherent mistrust of things mechanical, I can't help but feel that the gliding advice was started by a nervous CFI with a similar mistrust.
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To me, the difference is that in cruise, you're generally not at <1,000 agl. At 1000 feet or less, you don't have a ton of time to evaluate options. When you're 2,3,5,10k feet you have time to figure out where is a good spot, try to restart, etc. When you're on final approach at 1000 feet and descending, if your engine quits you've got what, maybe 20-30 seconds? That's not a lot of time to make a good decision.
Is it practical to make a glide range pattern all the time? No probably not, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to if you can.
Edit: Also, lots of airports are located in areas where the runway is the only viable landing spot. Plowing into a Target or a Home Depot because some guy in a 172 likes to fly long patterns just doesn't appeal to me. Not saying the OP did the wrong thing, and certainly cutting him off just because wasn't the best either, but I don't think we should discourage people from trying to fly a pattern within gliding distance.
Last edited by Phlyan Pan : 08-15-2011 at 07:53 PM.
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08-15-2011, 07:54 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Dallas, TX (ADS)
Posts: 2,180
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I'd say follow him in, staying high (delaying decent) and slowish. High to keep some energy and slow to keep from getting further from the airport. If the other aircraft is in front of you, it can't run into you.
TODR's #1 Rule of Transportation: Assume that everyone you see will somehow try to kill you; plan accordingly. Exemptions given for people that you know AND have briefed the flight/drive/ride with or are in communication with.
Rule #1 applies in the car, on the (moto)bike, behind the stick or on foot. I wish that I trusted my fellow humans more, and while I don't assume that they are going to intentionally do it, there are lots of avoidable incidents that occur. We're not in safe things like F1 or LMP cars (e.g., Bob Kubica's crash at Montreal in 07, McNish at LeMans this year), and crashes can turn out poorly.
So not pressing the issue was probably the right choice in your situation. If I were in a glider, or needed to land right now, I would have cut in front of him.
TODR
__________________
Doug "The Other Doug Reeves" Reeves
CTSW N621CT - SOLD but not forgotten
Home Bases LBX, BZN
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08-15-2011, 08:21 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
Posts: 10,011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbosaaber
Been years since I've worked tower but a right 270 to base to follow traffic might work here. Keeps everyone happy and more importantly, safe!
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Might be when you worked a tower, but that sounds like a very confusing move to other traffic at a non-towered field... 
__________________
Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
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08-15-2011, 08:23 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Big Sandy, WY
Posts: 2,567
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Jeez Bob
Quote:
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These practical lessons taught me in no uncertain terms that low, slow, and too far out is not a good place to be.
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I never said to go low/slow, just that you oughtta try & fit the flow within reason.
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Actual repeat offender.
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08-15-2011, 09:12 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 408
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If a student in a 172 is flying a B-52 approach, do you just follow him/her? Do you cut in unannounced? Do you request clearance to slip in between? What if it is a Lear? Do you fly "your" pattern regardless of the room he/she needs?
I, like others, was taught to stay within gliding distance while in the pattern (and had some humbling and rememberable lessons when the throttle got pulled by my CFI while a on a distant downwind). I fly very tight if I get the chance.
All that said, there are different planes, different pilots, and different situations we will encounter. It is the ability to adapt that is required of us in our skill display and judgement. There is no right answer in every situation, but for any given instance, did you make the right choice? Did everyone in the circuit know what you were doing? Did you cause anyone to have to take evasive maneuvers because of your decision? Did anyone get put in a difficult situation because of your decision? Did you minimize your own risk? Did you make your decision just for you, or did you consider GA and the folks flying at that field?
I get frustrated as much as the next guy with this issue, but the right thing to do really isn't much of a debate as far as I'm concerned. Replacing a remotely dangerous situation (wide pattern/circuit) with a more directly dangerous situation (non-standard pattern, cutting in, etc.) is a bit cutting off of the nose to spite the face.
Two cents...
__________________
JV
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
RV7 QB - Airframe largely complete, sans canopy and glass... unfortunately sold
RV6 - O-360-A1A, Hartzell CS, dual G3X VFR... purchased
Dues paid 2015
"Being defeated is only a temporary condition; giving up is what makes it permanent."
-- Marilyn vos Savant
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08-15-2011, 11:06 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Arroyo Grande, CA
Posts: 938
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My typical approach is to fly a 1/2 mile out downwind at 120 mph IAS, then turn at the 45? point. I recently caught **** from the tower 'cause they said I wasn't following a "standard" pattern, and that I was too close to departing aircraft. Try as I might I couldn't find anything in the AIM or FARS that said anything about how far the downwind should be from the runway, and I called them and told them that. Since they got radar they have now, supposedly, gotten extra responsibility. 'Nothing like giving a non-flying bureaucrat more responsibility!
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08-16-2011, 12:27 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sonoma County
Posts: 3,821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elippse
My typical approach is to fly a 1/2 mile out downwind at 120 mph IAS, then turn at the 45? point. I recently caught **** from the tower 'cause they said I wasn't following a "standard" pattern, and that I was too close to departing aircraft. Try as I might I couldn't find anything in the AIM or FARS that said anything about how far the downwind should be from the runway, and I called them and told them that. Since they got radar they have now, supposedly, gotten extra responsibility. 'Nothing like giving a non-flying bureaucrat more responsibility!
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That depends where you entered the pattern. If you entered on the 45 mid field then you would be no where near departing traffic and you would be doing it by the book.......... FAR/AIM 4-3-3
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08-16-2011, 04:28 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCONROY
As an active CFI at KUAO, I would suggest to my students to never turn final if another aircraft is on final approach. If the aircraft on final is 5 miles out and all they give is an N-number, you have no idea how fast they are moving. ....
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While true, if the "pattern" if five miles, they are not in the pattern.
In fact, the FAA states that if you are more than three miles from the airport, you are not considered to be in the pattern.
For instance, what if some joker announces he is 10 miles out for a straight in approach? Do you fly a 10 (more likely less) downwind to turn base?
__________________
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html
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