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  #1  
Old 08-15-2011, 02:06 PM
nucleus nucleus is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bozeman, Montana
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Question What Was the Right Move Here?

When I flew into uncontrolled Aurora OR a couple of weeks ago there was an RV in front of me in the pattern who flew what looked to be about a 3 mile final. He turned from Base to Final just as I flew past the numbers on Downwind. At that moment, I was very tempted to fly my normal tight pattern and land in front of him. Time would have allowed me to get down and clear before he got to the runway. What I did do was extend my downwind to maintain spacing, but I really don't like being that far away from the runway at pattern altitude, just does not seem as safe. I also slowed way down, which I don't really like either.

My question is, what was the right move here?

1) I could have landed in front of him (doesn't seem right)

2) Turned Base at TP altitude and completed another circuit.

3) What I ended up doing, which put me well outside of gliding distance to the runway.

Thinking about this gave me new-found appreciation for my local (KBZN) controllers, they rarely have me extend a downwind for traffic. In fact, it is much more common that they have me land in front of traffic on a long final. This may be influenced by the fact that they are familiar with my tight patterns.

Thoughts?

Hans
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  #2  
Old 08-15-2011, 02:16 PM
scsmith scsmith is offline
 
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Location: Ashland, OR
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Default Tempting and frustrating

I have been in similar situations.
I have only once or twice turned inside a second plane, and ONLY after ASKING the other pilot if it was OK with him.
To do so without asking first would be dangerous and also add fuel to the discussion going on in another thread about stereotyping RV pilot behavior.
It's dangerous because, surprise-surprise, he might decide to turn earlier than he did last time, just when you have your belly to him.
And note there is a difference between 'asking' and 'telling'. 'Telling' is safer than just doing it, but it would understandably p**s the other guy off.

Somehow many CFI's don't seem to teach the concept that a pattern should keep you within gliding range if engine dies, and should be a consistent, predictable path that everyone knows where to look when you report positions.
When one plane turns base at 2 miles (3 is usually a bit of an exaggeration) and another turns at 1/2 mile or less, where is the consistency and predictability?
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  #3  
Old 08-15-2011, 02:27 PM
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Kahuna Kahuna is offline
 
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Default

Hans,
1. 2 way communication is always advisable
2. Judging distance and SPEED, is not an easy thing to do when your target is on your nose or only slightly nose off. He could be coming in at mach 2 with his hair on fire for a low approach
3. I would never turn inside another pilot unless I knew for darn sure I had the following items covered.... would nerver be a factor, never make him even remotely nervous considering he could be a student pilot on his first solo, and was talking to him.
4. When glide distance becomes a concern for any pilot being forced to extend, CLIMB. Never let a forced extend take your options away.

my 2 cents
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  #4  
Old 08-15-2011, 02:50 PM
scsmith scsmith is offline
 
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Default Good idea, not always possible, but when able.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahuna View Post
Hans,
4. When glide distance becomes a concern for any pilot being forced to extend, CLIMB. Never let a forced extend take your options away.
This is an interesting suggestion that was not really in my toolbox - I will add it. Although....
Sometimes climbing is not possible because of overlying Class C or Class B airspace. Also, climbing above the normal pattern height may make others think you are departing -- I suppose you could think of it that way anyway, you are departing the pattern, and will maneuver to do a straight-in approach once the pattern is clear.

Another not-so-subtle way to hint at your frustration is to ask the other pilot, as he motors along on downwind, if he is departing or staying in the pattern.
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  #5  
Old 08-15-2011, 02:51 PM
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az_gila az_gila is offline
 
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Smile

If he is lower than you and on approach, then the FARs say he has right-of-way.

Your action was probebly the best thing to do...
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  #6  
Old 08-15-2011, 03:02 PM
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schristo@mac.com schristo@mac.com is offline
 
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Default he might have been in the same situation...

quite possibly he had to extend his downwind for other traffic... it would really be irritating to get cut off after that...

i never have bought into the idea that there is some magic about being within glide distance of the runway while in the pattern... wide patterns are frustrating but no big deal.
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  #7  
Old 08-15-2011, 03:07 PM
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az_gila az_gila is offline
 
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by scsmith View Post
....

Somehow many CFI's don't seem to teach the concept that a pattern should keep you within gliding range if engine dies, and should be a consistent, predictable path that everyone knows where to look when you report positions.
When one plane turns base at 2 miles (3 is usually a bit of an exaggeration) and another turns at 1/2 mile or less, where is the consistency and predictability?
We've been doing some approach calculations at our airpark due to a couple of recent noise complaints.

If you assume a turn to final at 500 AGL is typical, then a 3 degree glideslope (a typical VASI number) is a 19:1 glide angle with a turn about 1.8 miles from the runway threshold - in no-wind conditions - a head wind does not improve things...

This is a pretty low approach angle for most singles, and is typically below an engine-out glide path.

When you are turning final at 2 or more miles out you are getting well below an engine out glide slope.
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  #8  
Old 08-15-2011, 03:15 PM
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rocketbob rocketbob is offline
 
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Default

If I had to guess I've been in this situation 200+ times in the RV. It can be frustrating but easily managed. I fly a tight pattern. Any time there's traffic in the pattern the best thing to do is anticipate the traffic in front of you going wide and slow down earlier. Seriously, its that simple. Never enter the pattern above 150KIAS and usually you can minimize your closure rate on slower traffic. I fly often into one particular airport with slow/wide traffic all the time and the instructors there do wide patterns intentionally to rack up the hobbs time.
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  #9  
Old 08-15-2011, 03:31 PM
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N8RV N8RV is offline
 
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Default Gliding distance. Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nucleus View Post
... but I really don't like being that far away from the runway at pattern altitude, just does not seem as safe ...
Apparently, we all went to the same flight school for our primary training.

KEEP YOUR TRAFFIC PATTERN WITHIN GLIDING DISTANCE IN CASE YOUR ENGINE DIES.

Until reading some recent traffic pattern safety threads, I never questioned it. Defining pattern distance from the runway solely by gliding distance is absurd, as "gliding distance" will naturally be much different for a Pitts than a C-150. Or a 747. Or an RV.

My next question was, "Why is my engine at greater risk of dying in a traffic pattern than 10 miles out? Or 20?" As one who has an inherent mistrust of things mechanical, I can't help but feel that the gliding advice was started by a nervous CFI with a similar mistrust. After all, it would be a real shame to survive a long cross-country flight, constantly looking for big, empty fields and waiting for the engine to die a sudden death, only to make it all the way to your destination airport ... and have the engine quit on an extended downwind!

It's so ingrained in me that I MUST be able to glide to the runway "just in case the engine quits" that I often tighten my pattern a bit as a result. And, when I do that, I almost always lose the stabilized approach that works best for me and I end up with a less-than-stellar landing.

Hans, I think you did right by extending your downwind, personally, and for all of the reasons already mentioned. Maybe it's time to rethink our perceived need to be able to glide to a runway ...
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  #10  
Old 08-15-2011, 03:48 PM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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Default

Kahuna said it very succinctly, and I agree - communications are key. Without a doubt, don't cut inside unless you have his permission.

As for gliding distance to the runway - you are going to ct almost EVERYONE off in an RV flying that tight all the time. Yes, if no one is in front of me, I like to do practice glider approaches. But in general, in a "standard sized" pattern at most airports, an engine-out RV is going to hit the ground short. I guess I have spent enough time in an instrument environment that I have already accepted that risk a thousand times.

Courtesy to all is my motto - communicating is a great way to do that!
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