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08-04-2011, 06:50 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Tybee Island, GA
Posts: 664
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the faa vs Ipad users? Use and Ipad go to Jail?
from an email I got from Flying magazine this AM
Use an iPad Go to Jail?
Is the FAA trying to take away our handheld navigators and chart readers? A new draft advisory circular would sure make it seem like it. In fact, if it were approved as written, for all intents and purposes, it would mean the end of being able to see our position on moving map displays...and then some. To get the lowdown on this alarming situation, read Robert Goyer's Going Direct.
__________________
Mitch V.
Semi-Retired in Tybee Island GA
2007 MX2 Nigel Lamb EX RBAR MX2 (Current)
2020 MX2 New Kit Position (Sold at OSH to Team RV Member)
2009 Team Rocket F1 (Sold)
2008 MXS Green Slime"(Sold)
2007 MX2 Patches" (Sold)
1999 Giles 202 "Primal Fear/Perucho" (Sold)
1965 PA32-260 "God Bless America" (Sold)
2003 RV6 "Airhawk One" (Sold)
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08-04-2011, 06:53 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: na
Posts: 1,457
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Advisory Circulars are ADVISORY and not statutory - meaning they are not law and are not enforceable.
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08-04-2011, 06:59 AM
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Super Moderator
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hangar/home at Hicks Airfield (T67), Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 629
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???
Don't know where you got your info as I haven't heard of or tried to find the article you mentioned. Ban iPads and other moving maps? Wow! After they have approved the iPad for use in cockpits of several major air carriers?
A major manufacturer may be behind this! 
__________________
Mike Reddick
VAF#153
Pilots N Paws Pilot
RV6A N167CW 1,900 HRS
Ft Worth, TX (T67)
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08-04-2011, 07:02 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Tybee Island, GA
Posts: 664
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrreddick
Don't know where you got your info as I haven't heard of or tried to find the article you mentioned. Ban iPads and other moving maps? Wow! After they have approved the iPad for use in cockpits of several major air carriers?
A major manufacturer may be behind this! 
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i think you are right on the money...It was my first reaction as well
http://www.flyingmag.com/blogs/going...id=enews080311
__________________
Mitch V.
Semi-Retired in Tybee Island GA
2007 MX2 Nigel Lamb EX RBAR MX2 (Current)
2020 MX2 New Kit Position (Sold at OSH to Team RV Member)
2009 Team Rocket F1 (Sold)
2008 MXS Green Slime"(Sold)
2007 MX2 Patches" (Sold)
1999 Giles 202 "Primal Fear/Perucho" (Sold)
1965 PA32-260 "God Bless America" (Sold)
2003 RV6 "Airhawk One" (Sold)
Last edited by mv031161 : 08-04-2011 at 07:06 AM.
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08-04-2011, 07:05 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Tybee Island, GA
Posts: 664
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV8R999
Advisory Circulars are ADVISORY and not statutory - meaning they are not law and are not enforceable.
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you haven't dealt with Field FAA airworthines safety inspectors much have you?
__________________
Mitch V.
Semi-Retired in Tybee Island GA
2007 MX2 Nigel Lamb EX RBAR MX2 (Current)
2020 MX2 New Kit Position (Sold at OSH to Team RV Member)
2009 Team Rocket F1 (Sold)
2008 MXS Green Slime"(Sold)
2007 MX2 Patches" (Sold)
1999 Giles 202 "Primal Fear/Perucho" (Sold)
1965 PA32-260 "God Bless America" (Sold)
2003 RV6 "Airhawk One" (Sold)
Last edited by mv031161 : 08-04-2011 at 07:09 AM.
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08-04-2011, 07:18 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sugar Land, TX
Posts: 144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrreddick
A major manufacturer may be behind this! 
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My first thought as well when I saw this article. How about the Boeing subsidiary Jeppseen for starters? It's about time they had a bit of competition. They stand to lose a lot if the carriers begin to use EFBs for chart management.
__________________
Chuck McCluggage
Sugar Land, TX
RV-8 IO-375 WW 200RV
Flying
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08-04-2011, 07:19 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Flower Mound, TX
Posts: 65
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Not sure who at the FAA worked on this, but it is very troublesome at the very least. Download it and take a looksy at the DRAFT for yourself:
http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/draft_do...Coord_Copy.pdf
While not regulatory in nature, the circular is particularly troublesome in that it seems to mash in part 91 operations with commercial operations. They also make a really weird case against ownship identification which, for the life of me, I can't figure out in sect 8:
Own-ship position is not authorized for display or used for any application, for navigation or otherwise, on a Class 1 or Class 2 EFB in flight. Do not use this AC by itself to add own-ship position on moving maps on Class 1 and Class 2 EFBs. For guidance on the display of own-ship position, see Technical Standard Order (TSO)-C165, Electronic Map Display Equipment for Graphical Depiction of Aircraft Position (current edition). For an acceptable means to use an airport moving map display (AMMD) during ground operations on a Class 2 or installed EFB, see the current edition of AC 20-159, Obtaining Design and Production Approval of Airport Moving Map Display Applications Intended for Electronic Flight Bag Systems.
and in 9-e-3:
NOTE: Class 1 or Class 2 EFBs must not display own-ship position while in flight. For use of own-ship position on the ground see AC 20-159.
Looks like we need to "advise" the FAA on this draft.
Just my 2 cents...
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08-04-2011, 08:07 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 778
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This sure looks more like negligence than bad intent. The draft itself appears to contain internal inconsistencies, for example:
(3) Type B applications are used to display precomposed or interactive information such as navigation or approach charts. Required flight information is presented for each applicable phase of flight. A map-centering or page-turning function can be authorized if the operator properly evaluates it. Electronic navigation charts must provide a level of information integrity equivalent to paper charts.
NOTE: Class1 or Class 2 EFBs must not display own-ship position while in flight. For use of own-ship position on the ground see AC 20-159.
How can the map be self-centering without revealing own-ship position? (maybe you're only authorized to view the edges of the map?)
More significantly, how could such a regulation ever be effectively enforced? If asked, the pilot has only to tell the inspector that the portable GPS wasn't turned on.
__________________
Alan Carroll
RV-8 N12AC
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08-04-2011, 08:34 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Tybee Island, GA
Posts: 664
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Carroll
This sure looks more like negligence than bad intent. The draft itself appears to contain internal inconsistencies, for example:
(3) Type B applications are used to display precomposed or interactive information such as navigation or approach charts. Required flight information is presented for each applicable phase of flight. A map-centering or page-turning function can be authorized if the operator properly evaluates it. Electronic navigation charts must provide a level of information integrity equivalent to paper charts.
NOTE: Class1 or Class 2 EFBs must not display own-ship position while in flight. For use of own-ship position on the ground see AC 20-159.
How can the map be self-centering without revealing own-ship position? (maybe you're only authorized to view the edges of the map?)
More significantly, how could such a regulation ever be effectively enforced? If asked, the pilot has only to tell the inspector that the portable GPS wasn't turned on.
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yes. i tend to agree with you, BUT BUT......if we dont police this or ask EAA, AOPA and all members of VAF and others to start voicing our opinions and stance in the subject, we will get jammed with this ridiculous law.
As for the enforcement: I just dont want to deal with it when it happens...no good will come from arguing with them....I deal with the FAA constantly on my business and I have no desire to add more to my plate.
__________________
Mitch V.
Semi-Retired in Tybee Island GA
2007 MX2 Nigel Lamb EX RBAR MX2 (Current)
2020 MX2 New Kit Position (Sold at OSH to Team RV Member)
2009 Team Rocket F1 (Sold)
2008 MXS Green Slime"(Sold)
2007 MX2 Patches" (Sold)
1999 Giles 202 "Primal Fear/Perucho" (Sold)
1965 PA32-260 "God Bless America" (Sold)
2003 RV6 "Airhawk One" (Sold)
Last edited by mv031161 : 08-04-2011 at 08:38 AM.
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08-04-2011, 10:27 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Charlotte NC
Posts: 1,166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrreddick
Don't know where you got your info as I haven't heard of or tried to find the article you mentioned. Ban iPads and other moving maps? Wow! After they have approved the iPad for use in cockpits of several major air carriers?
A major manufacturer may be behind this! 
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At the moment no US part 121 air carriers can use Ipads in the cockpit. There is a limited test going on at Alaska and American. The tests are for using the Ipads to display charts and plates but not for navigation. Currently the FAA requires a Ipad in a 121 application to be powered off and stowed below 10,000 feet. The test is to consider allowing them for full time use as a EFB. If the 10,000 foot rule is not changed then there is little value to the airlines to equip the pilots with Ipads. They would still require almost full paper backups.
George
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