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07-28-2011, 10:59 AM
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: central oregon
Posts: 1,089
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchang10
This is effectively a production aircraft. It is built in a production plant in an assembly line. How is this any different from a Cessna? Call it what it is, a production plane and not an owner built plane. Same plane, same result for the TWTT owner, while maintaining the spirit of the Experimental category.
Otherwise, the TWTT owner will get the same repairman's certificate that I will get after I spent 6 hard-fought years of blood, sweat, and tears (literally) earning the same.
IMHO basically, this is just another means of cheating that is so rampant in society today. In sports, this is called cheating by doping or steroids.
Can you imagine having the TWT MD or JD or PhD program? Give me a break!
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The feds made the rules, and the Glasair program sounds like it has been looked over rather thoroughly by the feds, with approval.
there is no cheating. There is just a lot of money paying to get things done faster
__________________
nothing special here...
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07-28-2011, 11:40 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Illinois
Posts: 231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny7
There is just a lot of money paying to get things done faster
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Agreed. As long as the airplane is built well and the owner has the money to do it, then what is the problem? Having ZERO experience with a TWTT program I could see it being a little iffy trying to get the repairman's certificate but then again if you did the work then why shouldn't you? If it flys with the FAA then who should care? Many non-QB builders probably think that a QB kit is cheating too. Take the wings for example. Having built a non-QB plane, receiving the wings only missing one skin and the tips seems pretty far off from "building" the wings. To me they were done when they reached that point. For the guys that want new, can afford it, and have more interest in owning a plane rather than building it seems like a great deal to me. Would I do it? No not even if I could readily afford it, but to each his own.
Edit: I'll add that even though I 'bashed' the QB if/when I build again it likely would be a QB.
Last edited by Scott DellAngelo : 07-28-2011 at 11:42 AM.
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07-28-2011, 11:43 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Bonney Lake, WA
Posts: 295
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Some people simply have more money available than time. If Glasair has a program that is legal and suits the market, then I say good on 'em. All of the pro-level assistance available through these programs will undoubtedly result in a high quality machine.
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Ryan Winslow
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07-28-2011, 11:59 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV6_flyer
As a DAR, I will not have anything to do with TWTT airplanes.
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Gary,
Have you visited the TWTT program and actually seen how they do it and what is really involved? Have you seen how much work the customer actually does? The FAA was very negative until they actually spent a week going through the program first hand.
Next time you are in Arlington you should take a tour of the TWTT facility and make an informed judgment about it, I was also very skeptical until I actually visited their facility.
There are a number of people that now own airplanes and are involved in aviation because of this program. We need to find innovative ways to promote and get people involved in aviation not find ways to discourage them.
Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10
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07-28-2011, 12:07 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 525
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Just to fully clarify my point, i am only arguing the issue about the repairman's certificate for the -10 specifically. I have no experience with a Glastar or Sportsman, so I would not even speculate about those builds. Just given my experience with the -10, even with the QB, a LOT of extra work would have to be done for you to finish in 2 weeks IMHO.
I have just spent 2 solid long solid weeks doing final assembly on a -10. There is just no way i could ever do all that work in that time assuming universal Physics. Even if physical laws could be violated, my body and mind could not physically nor mentally do it in that time. I just cannot fathom how one could claim they did the work without a lot of "shortcuts" euphemistically speaking.
No doubt, the planes out of TWTT will fly and fly well, just like any other -10. In fact, being a "production" aircraft, they will undoubtedly all fly exactly the same, just like any other production aircraft from Cirrus or Cessna, even with the same avionics. I hope they sell a million -10's and get a million new, likely chinese or brazilian, pilots up in the air. However, don't give them the repairman's cert just because they paid for it, which at this point may just be symbolic.
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#40533 RV-10 Builder and CFI
1/2006 Started build
10/19/2011 First flight
Last edited by jchang10 : 07-28-2011 at 12:15 PM.
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07-28-2011, 12:08 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Louisville, Ga
Posts: 7,840
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Amen.
You can get an RV entirely built by pro's in Russia and South Africa.
I'd sure like that to be an option over here and receive a very, very airworthy airplane that's been totally sorted and test flown/rigged.
The Pitts model 12 is a recent example and a friend of mine has a new one...immaculate.
Best,
__________________
Pierre Smith
RV-10, 510 TT
RV6A (Sojourner) 180 HP, Catto 3 Bl (502Hrs), gone...and already missed
Air Tractor AT 502B PT 6-15 Sold
Air Tractor 402 PT-6-20 Sold
EAA Flight Advisor/CFI/Tech Counselor
Louisville, Ga
It's never skill or craftsmanship that completes airplanes, it's the will to do so,
Patrick Kenny, EAA 275132
Dues gladly paid!
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07-28-2011, 03:32 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Uberaba, MG, Brazil
Posts: 122
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Hi
There is a company in Brazil ( www.flyer.com.br) that builds and flyes an RV in a month. It enters the assembly line and in 30 days it is ready to fly with paint and panel. The company delivers about 8 units per month. The RV10 costs U$ 215K without avionics but with brand new lycoming io540 and cs prop. and the queue is somewhere between 12 and 18 months. They are tested before delivered and have warranty. Finishing is amazing, leather interior. I am a happy owner of one of those 10s!! 
Besides the whole RV line, they also build and sell other models such as Extra 200, Tecnans, Kolb Flyer, glastars, sportsman and so on.
Moura
Last edited by Moura : 07-28-2011 at 04:13 PM.
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07-28-2011, 05:34 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: KRTS
Posts: 1,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moura
Hi
There is a company in Brazil ( www.flyer.com.br) that builds and flyes an RV in a month. It enters the assembly line and in 30 days it is ready to fly with paint and panel. The company delivers about 8 units per month. The RV10 costs U$ 215K without avionics but with brand new lycoming io540 and cs prop. and the queue is somewhere between 12 and 18 months. They are tested before delivered and have warranty. Finishing is amazing, leather interior. I am a happy owner of one of those 10s!! 
Besides the whole RV line, they also build and sell other models such as Extra 200, Tecnans, Kolb Flyer, glastars, sportsman and so on.
Moura
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Seeing as how a well appointed 10 is fetching $200Kish, I'd call this very competitive.
__________________
Next?, TBD
IAR-823, SOLD
RV-8, SOLD
RV-7, SOLD
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07-28-2011, 07:26 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,646
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From: http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/u.../amateur_regs/
Is the TWTT program consistent in spirit with 21.191 part g below? Particularly the phrase "assembled by persons who undertook the construction project solely for their own education or recreation."? That's the part about the program that I question.
Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 21—CERTIFICATION PROCEDURES FOR PRODUCTS AND PARTS
Subpart H—Airworthiness Certificates
Browse Previous | Browse Next
§ 21.191 Experimental certificates.
Experimental certificates are issued for the following purposes:
(a) Research and development. Testing new aircraft design concepts, new aircraft equipment, new aircraft installations, new aircraft operating techniques, or new uses for aircraft.
(b) Showing compliance with regulations. Conducting flight tests and other operations to show compliance with the airworthiness regulations including flights to show compliance for issuance of type and supplemental type certificates, flights to substantiate major design changes, and flights to show compliance with the function and reliability requirements of the regulations.
(c) Crew training. Training of the applicant's flight crews.
(d) Exhibition. Exhibiting the aircraft's flight capabilities, performance, or unusual characteristics at air shows, motion picture, television, and similar productions, and the maintenance of exhibition flight proficiency, including (for persons exhibiting aircraft) flying to and from such air shows and productions.
(e) Air racing. Participating in air races, including (for such participants) practicing for such air races and flying to and from racing events.
(f) Market surveys. Use of aircraft for purposes of conducting market surveys, sales demonstrations, and customer crew training only as provided in §21.195.
(g) Operating amateur-built aircraft. Operating an aircraft the major portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook the construction project solely for their own education or recreation.
__________________
Steve M.
Ellensburg WA
RV-9 Flying, 0-320, Catto
Donation reminder: Jan. 2021
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07-28-2011, 07:33 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dallas area
Posts: 10,769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinelakespilot2000
Is the TWTT program consistent in spirit with 21.191 part g below? Particularly the phrase "assembled by persons who undertook the construction project solely for their own education or recreation."? That's the part about the program that I question.
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That is indeed the part I have a problem with. In my opinion, this type of program undermines the intent of the amateur-built rule!
__________________
Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
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