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  #21  
Old 07-23-2011, 08:53 PM
az_gila's Avatar
az_gila az_gila is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahuna View Post
Dont feel bad. Can you imagine what the article would look like if he attacked my plane? 97gal of wing fuel, IO-540 RV-8, pulling G's in show after show in front of the public putting all those lives on the ground at risk, all those planes in the air? Geez. A field day of writing could be had.
Id consider it an honor if he picked me.
Chin up as others have said. If you put your plane out for review, you have to expect it to be picked apart. Take it with a smile. I love it when smart people pick my plane apart. I learn a lot and have fun with it.
...and don't forget all of those highly modified RV-4s (aka Rockets) out there...
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EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
  #22  
Old 07-23-2011, 08:55 PM
Sig600 Sig600 is offline
 
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Location: KRTS
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Greg,
Your RV-10 and the 8 prior are GORGEOUS. Too many here warship at the altar of Van's and what he says is gospel to many.

His quality control of what becomes of his aircraft ends at the factory. You're dead on with regards to all the mods on the market and things people have done. It's called experimental for a reason, and I think Van has forgotten where the original RV came from. He's a brilliant engineer no doubt, but I take offense to how you were singled out, and the control/influence he's trying to exert over his customers. Many of which are much more experienced aviators, engineers, etc.

Build on!
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Next?, TBD
IAR-823, SOLD
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RV-7, SOLD
  #23  
Old 07-23-2011, 09:28 PM
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midwest rv-10 midwest rv-10 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Pleasant Prairie,Wisconsin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan View Post
The examples quoted above are attempts to deflect attention away from the Hale RV-10 issues but instead point out the very reason Van had to write his article. Nobody wants to duplicate auto conversions that catch on fire or the poor building practices of someone who rushes through a project.

But Van felt a need to come forward precisely because the Hale aircraft is a stunningly beautiful plane that was highlighted in a widely circulated magazine. This is the kind of plane that will have well-heeled builders writing huge checks to custom car interior designers in an attempt to achieve/exceed the attention given to Hale's aircraft. All of us know that many of these builders are totally unequipped to evaluate the cosmetic changes they will order without proper engineering review.

The ugly aircraft only get our disgust and pity. The georgous airplanes receive highly critical and detailed review because they are subject to being copied.

Van has been around the block enough times to know this is how the community works. This is why he felt he had no choice but to go public with his concerns. A private chat with an individual builder can not raise safety awareness within our community the same way a public posting does.

In my opinion, if there is a culprit in this saga, it is a magazine that jumped into an article without enough technical foresight to see where this would end up. I regret Greg has suffered public attention of the type he never wanted. But I hope that over time he can realize that our experimental community will be refined because of the aggravation he has experienced. And I hope he has many enjoyable and safe years in his RV-10.
Sam,
When I have mild criticism for the the fact that there are bigger issues that could use Van's attention you seem to have stepped in front of it and dismissed my opinion as "an attempt to deflect attention away from Hale's rv-10 issues"

You suggest that because one builder has acheived a higher level of craftsmanship that "well healed builders" will follow writing huge checks to interior shops.
So What!
If they feel that they want to improve their interior to suit themselves they are free to do so.

You also said that "all of us know that many of these builders are totally unequipped to evaluate the COSMETIC changes they will order without proper engineering review".
I'm not sure who "all of us you" are refering to because It's not me in that group...
What about guys sticking small block chevy engines in a plane? Seems they might need that proper engineering review over someone who makes cosmetic changes. Where is the concern for those builders?
What about doors that every10 builder agrees are extremely difficult to get to fit properly and have resulted in MANY door departures. these are known issues that don't get this type of attention.

All I was trying to point out is that there are larger and more urgent issues that Van could have focused on instead of One man's attempt at perfection.
Just because one guy builds a plane a certain way doesn't mean others will follow him. They may use some ideas but that's been going on way before Greg's plane showed up.

Lastly, I agree that a private chat with an individual builder cannot raise safety awareness the same way a public posting can. Van could have at least talked to Greg first to let him know about his concerns and give him an opportunity to explain his side prior to writing the article, and SA should have let Greg add his explanations to how he made his decisions as well.

I gotta run now,
Off to OshKosh in my highly modified RV-10 with A/C and modified seat levers in the morning!
Hope they let me in...


Don Orrick
N410JA
40010
  #24  
Old 07-23-2011, 09:30 PM
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L.Adamson L.Adamson is offline
 
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Location: KSLC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sig600 View Post
Greg,
Your RV-10 and the 8 prior are GORGEOUS. Too many here warship at the altar of Van's and what he says is gospel to many.

His quality control of what becomes of his aircraft ends at the factory. You're dead on with regards to all the mods on the market and things people have done. It's called experimental for a reason, and I think Van has forgotten where the original RV came from. He's a brilliant engineer no doubt, but I take offense to how you were singled out, and the control/influence he's trying to exert over his customers. Many of which are much more experienced aviators, engineers, etc.
Just don't get too carried away with being experimental. We've got people on the certified side of the fence, who are litterly calling "experimentals" a danger to society. They're using the recent FAA statistics on E-ABs as evidence. I try to calm their somewhat unfounded fears..........by saying that most experimentals are just well designed kit aircraft. These planes are just "experimental" in the context of law.

On the other hand, when too many deviations are made, in the name of "experimental"................and the airplane does crash, it gets noticed.

So no, I don't take everything Van say's as gospel either. I don't believe in RV's being as light as possible. I'd only do that, if I had no intention of cross countries, while being content as a local flyer.

At the same time, I do question the rudder pedal connections, and seat belts. Those are points that needed to be brought forward.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
  #25  
Old 07-23-2011, 10:07 PM
Sig600 Sig600 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L.Adamson View Post
Just don't get too carried away with being experimental.
What the **** is TOO experimental? Where is the line? And it can't be open to interpretation. No grey area.....

There's the problem. Otherwise buy a certified a/c.
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  #26  
Old 07-23-2011, 10:21 PM
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craigvince craigvince is offline
 
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Location: Stockton, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az_gila View Post
Maybe... but the whole episode shows a complete lack of communication, mainly on Vans and Sport Aviation's sides....
Excellent point!
  #27  
Old 07-23-2011, 11:30 PM
kevingross kevingross is offline
 
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Location: Chicago
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I don't remember ever reading an article written by a manufacturer that was so critical of a customer. Very unusual for someone to comment so harshly.

If Van's had such heartache with your changes they could have handled this in a more professional manner. They could have contacted you and expressed their concerns and offered suggestions for changes. You then could have had the opportunity to respond and later written an article offering an update on the aircraft. It would have made for interesting reading.

Sport Aviation should have given you a chance to comment on this article. The magazine lost some credibility in my eyes.

I liked your aircraft and the creativity that went into the improvements.

Consider the comments made by Van's, incorporate changes you feel will improve the design and then move on and enjoy flying a beautiful aircraft.
  #28  
Old 07-24-2011, 02:58 AM
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Geico266 Geico266 is offline
 
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Location: Huskerland, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevingross View Post
I don't remember ever reading an article written by a manufacturer that was so critical of a customer. Very unusual for someone to comment so harshly.

If Van's had such heartache with your changes they could have handled this in a more professional manner. They could have contacted you and expressed their concerns and offered suggestions for changes. You then could have had the opportunity to respond and later written an article offering an update on the aircraft. It would have made for interesting reading.

Sport Aviation should have given you a chance to comment on this article. The magazine lost some credibility in my eyes.

I liked your aircraft and the creativity that went into the improvements.

Consider the comments made by Van's, incorporate changes you feel will improve the design and then move on and enjoy flying a beautiful aircraft.
Great 1st Post!


Welcome to VAF!
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  #29  
Old 07-24-2011, 04:13 AM
paul330 paul330 is offline
 
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I think that the argument has got away from the whole point. VANS makes an aircraft which is tested to the appropriate design standard. It is lightweight, strong and fast. It is never designed to be a "Cadillac". Sure, in the US, you have the experimental category. But taking a proven design and bulking it out so that it cannot perform to the original spec is not what is meant by "experimental".

We have moved away from the string and fabric style of homebuild but we should not forget that we are NOT (whatever the US law might say) aircraft manufacturers. The aircraft VANS designed are practical and safe and can be made very comfortable for long-range cruising, but there is a limit to what is sensible. I believe VAN was totally justified in making comment on what he felt was a misuse of his design. By buying his kit, we should honour his design and the testing that has been done.
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  #30  
Old 07-24-2011, 06:44 AM
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Flyfalcons Flyfalcons is offline
 
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Location: Bonney Lake, WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul330 View Post
I think that the argument has got away from the whole point. VANS makes an aircraft which is tested to the appropriate design standard. It is lightweight, strong and fast. It is never designed to be a "Cadillac". Sure, in the US, you have the experimental category. But taking a proven design and bulking it out so that it cannot perform to the original spec is not what is meant by "experimental".
Why not? Who made you the authority on the minimum utility of someone's personal aircraft?
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