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  #11  
Old 07-23-2011, 02:37 PM
midwest rv-10's Avatar
midwest rv-10 midwest rv-10 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Pleasant Prairie,Wisconsin
Posts: 67
Default There are more urgent topics available

I read the articles in Sport Aviation and Van's original post regarding Greg's aircraft and I find it ironic that Van chooses to step in to caution people about aspects of one of the finest RV-10 examples built to date. Where is Van's critical thinking regarding installation of Automotive engines in 10's. To date the track record is one dead and two barely escaping with there lives during a deadstick landing trying to reach the runway and two more who were burnt when the plane exploded on the taxiway and the plane burnt to the ground. This seems to be a more urgent topic to discuss with builders, I know it has been talked about some in the past but not at the level of Greg's -10. Not a full 2 page article.

Or what about the doors coming off of the 10's inflight. There's a newsworthy topic... Everyone was asking for their input to be heard after numerous accounts of doors coming off in flight started occuring, we heard NOTHING for 2 yrs. Then we get service bulletin placed on the plane and patch instead of a redisigned latching system.
It's ironic that Greg's plane has one of the best door latching systems offered to date for the 10! That somehow got overlooked in the critique.

What about commenting on Get'r Donitis?
Here is an area where Van could use his influence to reach out to those builders who are setting artifical deadlines to complete their build and get in the air. Builders would listen to Van regarding things like this if done in a fashion similar to the Safety articles he has put out recently.
I feel Van could have approached this so much better than this and still achieved his goal. Instead he singles out a quality builder and points out his "issues" to the entire community.
How many poor quality built aircraft have shown up at shows but are somehow not being exposed to the criticism that has been placed on Greg?

Sport Aviation seemed to think Greg's plane was something special to get the original article done, now they come back and do a Van's perspective update that try's to rewrite their original article. Not Cool...

Greg,
I went to your site and read the other side of the story you provided. I suggest others do as well.
I hope to see your plane at OshKosh, you did a great job!
Don Orrick
N410JA
  #12  
Old 07-23-2011, 04:03 PM
Sam Buchanan's Avatar
Sam Buchanan Sam Buchanan is offline
been here awhile
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 4,301
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by midwest rv-10 View Post
I read the articles in Sport Aviation and Van's original post regarding Greg's aircraft and I find it ironic that Van chooses to step in to caution people about aspects of one of the finest RV-10 examples built to date. Where is Van's critical thinking regarding installation of Automotive engines in 10's. To date the track record is one dead and two barely escaping with there lives during a deadstick landing trying to reach the runway and two more who were burnt when the plane exploded on the taxiway and the plane burnt to the ground. This seems to be a more urgent topic to discuss with builders, I know it has been talked about some in the past but not at the level of Greg's -10. Not a full 2 page article.

Or what about the doors coming off of the 10's inflight. There's a newsworthy topic... Everyone was asking for their input to be heard after numerous accounts of doors coming off in flight started occuring, we heard NOTHING for 2 yrs. Then we get service bulletin placed on the plane and patch instead of a redisigned latching system.
It's ironic that Greg's plane has one of the best door latching systems offered to date for the 10! That somehow got overlooked in the critique.

What about commenting on Get'r Donitis?
Here is an area where Van could use his influence to reach out to those builders who are setting artifical deadlines to complete their build and get in the air. Builders would listen to Van regarding things like this if done in a fashion similar to the Safety articles he has put out recently.
I feel Van could have approached this so much better than this and still achieved his goal. Instead he singles out a quality builder and points out his "issues" to the entire community.
How many poor quality built aircraft have shown up at shows but are somehow not being exposed to the criticism that has been placed on Greg?

Sport Aviation seemed to think Greg's plane was something special to get the original article done, now they come back and do a Van's perspective update that try's to rewrite their original article. Not Cool...

Greg,
I went to your site and read the other side of the story you provided. I suggest others do as well.
I hope to see your plane at OshKosh, you did a great job!
Don Orrick
N410JA
The examples quoted above are attempts to deflect attention away from the Hale RV-10 issues but instead point out the very reason Van had to write his article. Nobody wants to duplicate auto conversions that catch on fire or the poor building practices of someone who rushes through a project.

But Van felt a need to come forward precisely because the Hale aircraft is a stunningly beautiful plane that was highlighted in a widely circulated magazine. This is the kind of plane that will have well-heeled builders writing huge checks to custom car interior designers in an attempt to achieve/exceed the attention given to Hale's aircraft. All of us know that many of these builders are totally unequipped to evaluate the cosmetic changes they will order without proper engineering review.

The ugly aircraft only get our disgust and pity. The georgous airplanes receive highly critical and detailed review because they are subject to being copied.

Van has been around the block enough times to know this is how the community works. This is why he felt he had no choice but to go public with his concerns. A private chat with an individual builder can not raise safety awareness within our community the same way a public posting does.

In my opinion, if there is a culprit in this saga, it is a magazine that jumped into an article without enough technical foresight to see where this would end up. I regret Greg has suffered public attention of the type he never wanted. But I hope that over time he can realize that our experimental community will be refined because of the aggravation he has experienced. And I hope he has many enjoyable and safe years in his RV-10.
__________________
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RV-6
Fokker D.VII replica
  #13  
Old 07-23-2011, 04:09 PM
Wayne Gillispie Wayne Gillispie is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 1,499
Default It is Richard VanGrunsven's turn

Greg,

With 10,000+ flying hours, a mechanical engineering degree, nine different aircraft designs(all of which he did the first flight)... I trust Van with my wife and two kids. I chose to follow the plans for SAFETY above all else. Along with that came reduced build time, affordability and resalability. I made five minor modifications and did not feel it was necessary to contact Van's engineering for approval. When planning for the modifications, I always ask myself,"What else will this effect and if it fails can it kill me?" If one chooses to make a major modification then the designer should be contacted first. If they don't recommend it, then it is just like for me when the wx briefer says,"vfr flight not recommended". If one chooses to build it or fly anyway then we may be better off not publicizing it.

You built your plane the way you wanted with more modifications than any other RV-10 builder, showed it to world proudly as you should have and had an article in a highly respected magazine that thousands of builders will read as "gospel". You allowed them to do the story. Was Van contacted for any input before the mods were made or the story was published? If I was Van I would want an article published too as the interviewer in your article probably knew nothing about designing, building or flying an RV-10. Let Van give us his expert engineering explanations so we can all learn from this. Then as others have said make the changes that you feel are necessary for you and your passengers safety and enjoy the plane.
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Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
  #14  
Old 07-23-2011, 04:36 PM
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DCat22 DCat22 is offline
 
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Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 531
Default

It would have been reasonable to discuss the content of the article and their concerns with Hale, ahead of time however. Likely it would have had about the same content...but just like in the IT/security field where you (try to) tell the vendor about an exploit (and discuss the issue, and both learn something) before releasing public bulletins. Same effect, but Hale would be in a better place and it would look altogether better for both parties.

And...a bit of balance on the things that were done well and improved (ie. door latches, from what I saw) would have been appropriate too.

I don't have issue with it being published -- I just don't understand why you wouldn't communicate more first vs. firing it off. Heck, if I were Hale I would have been willing to fly my plane up there and go over the details in person...for better or for worse, but at least its a more honest and honorable outcome.

Also, Hale could have learned something himself, which I hope Vans would have also been interested in...heck, imagine if some things were changed and that was included in the article? You don't learn or improve from being ripped apart, but I guess they didn't really care about the effect on their target?
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  #15  
Old 07-23-2011, 07:45 PM
craigvince's Avatar
craigvince craigvince is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Stockton, CA
Posts: 1,207
Default My 2 cents worth

I've read the Sport Aviation article, Vans Facebook article and Greg's comments on his website about the articles.

I think I can understand everyone's point of view. Greg wanted a custom plane, and was willing to take the responsibility for any consequences thereof. Sport Aviation saw an incredibly beautiful, fully loaded example of a homebuilt and wanted to write a feature article about it. Van saw the article and became rightfully concerned that other, less educated builders might try to do the same thing, without accessing the consequences. Therefore, he wrote an article that (paraphrasing) says "builder beware", or "don't try this at home".

Imagine if everyone thought they could buy an RV-10 kit and put whatever they wanted in it. If some of them got carried away people starting getting killed, the perception would be that the RV-10 was an unsafe aircraft. Imagine how this might impact all of us.

Keep in mind that Van did not tell Greg he couldn't make any of these mods. He didn't imply that Greg should go back and change anything on his plane. Greg built the plane the way he wanted to, and I wholly support this right and privilege. Van simply told people that in his opinion, nobody else should try to duplicate it. And I support Van's right to do so.

I think all three articles were well written, showing three different points of view, each based on the information that they had at the time.
  #16  
Old 07-23-2011, 07:55 PM
TSwezey TSwezey is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 1,849
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by midwest rv-10 View Post
I read the articles in Sport Aviation and Van's original post regarding Greg's aircraft and I find it ironic that Van chooses to step in to caution people about aspects of one of the finest RV-10 examples built to date. Where is Van's critical thinking regarding installation of Automotive engines in 10's. To date the track record is one dead and two barely escaping with there lives during a deadstick landing trying to reach the runway and two more who were burnt when the plane exploded on the taxiway and the plane burnt to the ground. This seems to be a more urgent topic to discuss with builders, I know it has been talked about some in the past but not at the level of Greg's -10. Not a full 2 page article.

Or what about the doors coming off of the 10's inflight. There's a newsworthy topic... Everyone was asking for their input to be heard after numerous accounts of doors coming off in flight started occuring, we heard NOTHING for 2 yrs. Then we get service bulletin placed on the plane and patch instead of a redisigned latching system.
It's ironic that Greg's plane has one of the best door latching systems offered to date for the 10! That somehow got overlooked in the critique.

What about commenting on Get'r Donitis?
Here is an area where Van could use his influence to reach out to those builders who are setting artifical deadlines to complete their build and get in the air. Builders would listen to Van regarding things like this if done in a fashion similar to the Safety articles he has put out recently.
I feel Van could have approached this so much better than this and still achieved his goal. Instead he singles out a quality builder and points out his "issues" to the entire community.
How many poor quality built aircraft have shown up at shows but are somehow not being exposed to the criticism that has been placed on Greg?

Sport Aviation seemed to think Greg's plane was something special to get the original article done, now they come back and do a Van's perspective update that try's to rewrite their original article. Not Cool...

Greg,
I went to your site and read the other side of the story you provided. I suggest others do as well.
I hope to see your plane at OshKosh, you did a great job!
Don Orrick
N410JA
Please you don't have a clue what the cause of that was and by the way the ONLY thing besides the tail that was still usable was the corvette engine and the PSRU. It had absolutely nothing to do with my choice of engine. Amazingly look how many people are flying Van's aircraft with water cooled engines now. Very ironic. Somebody has to take the first leap. You just have to try and do it as safely and methodically as possible. And Greg I feel your pain many times over.
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N110TD
RV-10 Vesta V8 LS2/BMA EFIS/One formerly flying at 3J1 Hobbs stopped at 150 hours
Savannah, GA and Ridgeland, SC
  #17  
Old 07-23-2011, 08:01 PM
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Geico266 Geico266 is offline
 
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Location: Huskerland, USA
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Default

Greg, others have posted what I would like to have wanted to say so i won't repeat it.

It sucks to be the attention of such scrutiny, I know. You did not deserve this. All I want to say is hang in there. You built a beautiful plane. Others are learning from the comments and articles written about it, so in a strange way you are contributing more than most builders ever will to our hobby.

Thanks for the post. Hang in there, and certainly do not lose sleep over it. Just enjoy the plane.

I have a set of your seat handles, now if I can just find the time to install them.
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RV-7 : In the hangar
RV-10 : In the hangar
RV-12 : Built and sold
RV-44 : 4 place helicopter on order.

Last edited by Geico266 : 07-23-2011 at 08:06 PM.
  #18  
Old 07-23-2011, 08:23 PM
lancef53 lancef53 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Portland, ND
Posts: 424
Default

I think you have a great plane, and I think Van handled it poorly. It would have been just as easy to put a picture of the rudder pedal standoffs and the seatbelt brackets in the RVator, and inform the public of his opinion. No names or N-numbers would have been needed. You aren't singled out, and Van gets his point across without looking like a bully-win win.

Everyone knows how Van feels about light/vs heavy aircraft, FWIW.

Keep your chin up, and keep building great aircraft!!
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RV-8 108LF
  #19  
Old 07-23-2011, 08:39 PM
az_gila's Avatar
az_gila az_gila is offline
 
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Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
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Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigvince View Post
.....
I think all three articles were well written, showing three different points of view, each based on the information that they had at the time.
Maybe... but the whole episode shows a complete lack of communication, mainly on Vans and Sport Aviation's sides....
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Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
  #20  
Old 07-23-2011, 08:42 PM
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Kahuna Kahuna is offline
 
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Location: Gold Hill, NC25
Posts: 2,400
Default

Dont feel bad. Can you imagine what the article would look like if he attacked my plane? 97gal of wing fuel, IO-540 RV-8, pulling G's in show after show in front of the public putting all those lives on the ground at risk, all those planes in the air? Geez. A field day of writing could be had.
Id consider it an honor if he picked me.
Chin up as others have said. If you put your plane out for review, you have to expect it to be picked apart. Take it with a smile. I love it when smart people pick my plane apart. I learn a lot and have fun with it.
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Kahuna
6A, S8 ,
Gold Hill, NC25
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