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06-10-2011, 04:31 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,544
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I have been flying rockets for 13 years now and just love my EVO. It is very fast, quite practical and my wife likes the ride. But everyone wants to go faster and last weekend there was a very nice Legacy at a local flyin. My wife was with me and so I asked the owner if she could sit in the plane and see how it felt. The cockpit was larger then I expected and looked quite comfortable. I am not sure how I would like the semi reclined seating as I really do like the upright rocket seats. I asked the owner how much runway he needed and he responded 2500 feet for comfort and never, never, landed on grass due to the high nose wheel weight. My wife and I looked at each other; my runway is 2400 feet of grass.
They are a beautiful plane but based on race results only 25 to 30 mph faster then my dependable fixed gear and I would sure hate to give up the sunday morning grass fly-ins.
Rockets and RVs rule!
__________________
Tom Martin RV1 pilot 4.6hours!
CPL & IFR rated
EVO F1 Rocket 1000 hours,
2010 SARL Rocket 100 race, average speed of 238.6 knots/274.6mph
RV4, RV7, RV10, two HRIIs and five F1 Rockets
RV14 Tail dragger
Fairlea Field
St.Thomas, Ontario Canada, CYQS
fairleafield@gmail.com
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06-10-2011, 08:03 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Douglas Flat, CA
Posts: 589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T51 Pilot
I'm just curious; what do you mean when you say "is nothing compared to the carnage we'd see if all RV's had retracts"?
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I meant in the sense of mechanical carnage: A bunch of forgetting to put the gear down, having the gear not come down, or having it not lock down so that it collapses. Also, the design of retractable gear invites compromise such that it is often a less robust than its fixed counterparts, and there is likely to be greater incidence of damage in upsets that the fixed gear would have absorbed.
There might not be many of each of these types of incidents, but my thinking is that given how many RVs there are they'd add up fast. Insurance companies would take note, as might other officials.
Also, it's easy to sit back and think that if we all had good gear warning systems, we'd all always put the gear down and never put belly to tarmac. But the Air France accident shows that even with the very best intentions and the best automation money can buy, bad things still happen. Given conflicting information and a cacophony of aural alarms even a seasoned professional can become distracted and confused enough to do the wrong thing all the way to the deck.
Thanks, Bob K.
__________________
Bob Kuykendall
HP-24 kit sailplane
EAA Technical Counselor
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06-10-2011, 03:56 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: EP, TX
Posts: 27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Kuykendall
I meant in the sense of mechanical carnage: A bunch of forgetting to put the gear down, having the gear not come down, or having it not lock down so that it collapses. Also, the design of retractable gear invites compromise such that it is often a less robust than its fixed counterparts, and there is likely to be greater incidence of damage in upsets that the fixed gear would have absorbed.
There might not be many of each of these types of incidents, but my thinking is that given how many RVs there are they'd add up fast. Insurance companies would take note, as might other officials.
Also, it's easy to sit back and think that if we all had good gear warning systems, we'd all always put the gear down and never put belly to tarmac. But the Air France accident shows that even with the very best intentions and the best automation money can buy, bad things still happen. Given conflicting information and a cacophony of aural alarms even a seasoned professional can become distracted and confused enough to do the wrong thing all the way to the deck.
Thanks, Bob K.
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It might be worthwhile to talk to some of the spam can flyers, and see how they are able to cope with retractable gear.
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06-13-2011, 06:29 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Taylor Texas
Posts: 811
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RG Plan A
Here's my plan: make the gear speed low enough that it requires the operator to slow to gear speed - dramatically. I'm thinking of maybe 120KIAS or so. This requires the operator to plan ahead - WAY ahead, which just might help raise the percentage of wheels-down landings.
Plan B might involve a switch on the throttle lever to turn on a red light on the glare shield below some particular setting (the 'please don't land' light).
Try as you might, you are not gonna talk me out of an RG system. If the hull insurance is too high, well....it's not a requirement!
Carry on!
Mark
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06-13-2011, 08:28 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Martinsville, IN
Posts: 2,326
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Hey Mark, My old Long-EZ had limit switches installed on the throttle and the gear leg. If you retarded the throttle and the gear was up, it triggered a warning light.
Of course, it didn't prevent me from landing once with the nose gear retracted. Fortunately, all it did was wear down the rubber nose bumper. Since that's my once "those that will" experiences, I should be golden for the F1 retract.
__________________
Randy Pflanzer
Greenwood, IN
www.pflanzer-aviation.com
Paid through 2043!
Lund fishing Boat, 2017, GONE FISHING
RV-12 - Completed 2014, Sold
427 Shelby Cobra - Completed 2012, Sold
F1 EVO - partially completed, Sold
F1 Rocket - Completed 2005, Sold
RV-7A - Partially completed, Sold
RV-6 - Completed 2000, Sold
Long-EZ - Completed 1987, Sold
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06-13-2011, 08:41 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Taylor Texas
Posts: 811
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Good news!
Quote:
Originally Posted by f1rocket
Hey Mark, My old Long-EZ had limit switches installed on the throttle and the gear leg. If you retarded the throttle and the gear was up, it triggered a warning light.
Of course, it didn't prevent me from landing once with the nose gear retracted. Fortunately, all it did was wear down the rubber nose bumper. Since that's my once "those that will" experiences, I should be golden for the F1 retract.
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Hey Randy:
Not many of us could shrug off a gear up landing! Glad to hear you got that out of the way. Maybe we can figger out how to add some hockey puck thingies to the bottom of the new design?
I'd like to see how those limit switches were set up, so I don't have to depend on a couple blocks of nylon...
I'm off to Reno for PRS tomorrow - will meet with another wing engineer while I'm there, and I'm hoping for some good news this time.
Carry on!
Mark
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06-13-2011, 08:46 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Northwestern USA
Posts: 1,209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F1Boss
I'd like to see how those limit switches were set up, so I don't have to depend on a couple blocks of nylon...
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For what it's worth, the gear horn in some certified aircraft uses a manifold pressure switch, not a throttle position switch. Possibly less to go out of adjustment.
mcb
__________________
Matt Burch
RV-7 (last 90%)
http://www.rv7blog.com
VAF #836
Any opinions expressed in this message are my own and not those of my employer.
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06-13-2011, 08:52 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: TX32
Posts: 1,891
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For what it's worth...
Mark,
For what it's worth, I was able to safely remember to put my wheels down (by myself) in the F-16 for 3000+ hours. I don't think limiting your design to fixed gear due to fears of liability is the big issue. My insurance agent informed me Rocket insurance was high due to big engine, poor forward ground visibility and conventional gear(ground loop) accidents. Having retracts would be a good question for him, I will ask and get back with you. I agree with Tom, it may not be worth the cost and complexity for 20 knots.
I loved my HR2 simply for the fact of utility, and amazing bang for the buck as Tom clearly pointed out. My HR2 was the fastest airplane I could safely operate off my short, rough grass strip. I haven't seen anything yet that could match or exceed that capability.
If you offered retracts, that wouldn't "de-tract" from my interest
Smokey
Last edited by smokyray : 06-13-2011 at 08:55 AM.
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06-13-2011, 09:23 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 8I3
Posts: 3,564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Martin
My wife and I looked at each other; my runway is 2400 feet of grass.
They are a beautiful plane but based on race results only 25 to 30 mph faster then my dependable fixed gear and I would sure hate to give up the sunday morning grass fly-ins.
Rockets and RVs rule!
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Tom a friend of mine with an 2600 foot strip has a flyin every year, and a guy with a Legacy always makes it in with lots of room to spare. And it is not a smooth strip by any stretch of the imagination. Legacy's are neat but simplicity rules in my book however and that's why I have no desire to own or maintain a retractable gear airplane.
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Please don't PM me! Email only!
Bob Japundza CFI A&PIA
N9187P PA-24-260B Comanche, flying
N678X F1 Rocket, under const.
N244BJ RV-6 "victim of SNF tornado" 1200+ hrs, rebuilding
N8155F C150 flying
N7925P PA-24-250 Comanche, restoring
Not a thing I own is stock.
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06-13-2011, 10:28 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,544
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If I could get a retract on the EVO that would still allow me the same landing speeds that I have I would certainly consider it. This might get me close to Legacy speeds at the top end and still allow me to keep the plane at home. The best of both worlds.
__________________
Tom Martin RV1 pilot 4.6hours!
CPL & IFR rated
EVO F1 Rocket 1000 hours,
2010 SARL Rocket 100 race, average speed of 238.6 knots/274.6mph
RV4, RV7, RV10, two HRIIs and five F1 Rockets
RV14 Tail dragger
Fairlea Field
St.Thomas, Ontario Canada, CYQS
fairleafield@gmail.com
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