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08-02-2008, 10:38 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pasadena CA
Posts: 2,484
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Cessna's verbage is "Avoid slips with flaps extended".
In the 172 with 40? of flap, the wash limits rudder authority anyway, so there isn't much slip. With 30? of flaps not so bad. You can get into a situation where the flaps blanks the elevators, which to a small degree, will drop the nose a bit. In the Cardinal this is a little more pronounced.
Know the airplane you fly. Learn about how it handles on the low end before you do this kind of stuff at low altitudes.
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Stephen Samuelian, CFII, A&P IA, CTO
RV4 wing in Jig @ KPOC
RV7 emp built
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05-20-2011, 06:16 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Posts: 22
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I honestly don't know what all the fuss is about, concerning the so-called "Impossible Turn". Professor Dave Rogers at the USN Academy wrote a paper about this, decades ago, which I guess no one bothers reading.
I demonstrate this regularly from 500 feet in a C172. The turnback is easy. Making the runway is harder, because most aircraft glide steeper than they climb. Long runways, headwinds and Vx climbs help.
A friend of mine did this for real in a T-6 from 400 feet, but he is a professional test pilot, and as such is a pretty good stick.
The turnback is like anything else. If you get training and practice it, you can do it. If you don't get training and don't practice it, don't do it.
This is really not rocket science.
Most pilots don't have very good stick & rudder skills, IMHO. They struggle with cross-wind landings, which for me is a red flag. Typical of nosewheel pilots.
I frequently fly surface-level aerobatics. In formation. Under negative G. If you can do that, the turnback (an upright, descending, light +ve G turn) really doesn't pose an insurmountable problem. I can eat a sandwich during one.
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BSc, ATPL, ICAS SAC, SFOC, AP, PRM, L39 check pilot
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05-20-2011, 06:23 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Newport, TN
Posts: 7,496
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05-20-2011, 06:43 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,179
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practice for vertical and horizontal travel
I went up with an instructor to test some of the "turn back to runway" recommendations. We climbed to about 3000 ft and did some tests. We discovered an interesting fact. Both the instructor and I were consistently turned around within 300 ft and in some tests, less.
... BUT ...
When we did the same test down at runway altitude at the airport we discovered that, while we had the plane turned around and headed back to the runway, we were still downwind off the end of the runway.
When you setup your tests "up at altitude", you need a GPS marker or some accurate ground reference to insure that you not only have completed the turn back but have also arrived back at the runway.
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05-20-2011, 08:10 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Posts: 22
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Quote:
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we were still downwind off the end of the runway
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Right - see above. The 210 degree turnback (you need more than a 180 degree turn) is actually pretty easy.
Turn immediately to 45 to 60 degrees of bank, the max you are comfortable with. Don't push down to a -ve AOA - just let the nose fall gently, very light G, maintaining your trimmed climb speed. During the steep descending turn, all you concentrate on is airspeed and ball, airspeed and ball. I use 80 mph in the 172.
The hard part is making it back to the runway. To do so, you need:
1) a long runway (and it use it!)
2) a headwind
3) a steep climb angle (think Vx)
Also, when the engine fails, turn into any crosswind to minimize lateral displacement. This is part of your pretakeoff brief.
This really isn't rocket science, people. I am amazed at all the nonsense that gets repeated about this very simple maneuver, by supposedly reputable sources such as FLYING magazine, AOPA, etc. Dave Rogers had it right, all those years ago, but he was a USN Admiral, so go figure.
You want to try something challenging, try an outside loop at the surface in line abreast formation. The turnaround is dead nuts simple. My 18 year old kid can do it.
PS If you are at all interested in thsi subject, please read this:
http://jeremy.zawodny.com/flying/turnback.pdf
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BSc, ATPL, ICAS SAC, SFOC, AP, PRM, L39 check pilot
Last edited by Pitts : 05-20-2011 at 08:12 AM.
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05-20-2011, 08:31 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitts
try an outside loop at the surface in line abreast formation.
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Like all things, practice, practice, practice. Nothing is easy at first ... except perhaps falling off a bike.
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05-20-2011, 09:24 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Louisville, Ga
Posts: 7,840
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Caution guys!
Andrew, you must be a fine stick, doing low level, formation outside and ground level....however, there are many young, low-time guys on here.
I'm sincere and not insulting your post but I have to warn the lower time guys that this can be a very dangerous maneuver, so don't make it sound so incredibly easy, just for safety's sake...no flame intended, really. I'm also a very high time pilot (18,500?) and it makes it difficult to fill a 100 hour pilot's shoes.
I've done it in my -6A from 250, 350 and 500' and twice, almost overshot the far end of the runway because of such a high climb rate of the RV's and their excellent glide ratio. I can just about assure you that if you do a quick turnaround from 500' ASL, you'll go off the far end. My runway is 5,000' long but I still had to go around.
Best,
__________________
Pierre Smith
RV-10, 510 TT
RV6A (Sojourner) 180 HP, Catto 3 Bl (502Hrs), gone...and already missed
Air Tractor AT 502B PT 6-15 Sold
Air Tractor 402 PT-6-20 Sold
EAA Flight Advisor/CFI/Tech Counselor
Louisville, Ga
It's never skill or craftsmanship that completes airplanes, it's the will to do so,
Patrick Kenny, EAA 275132
Dues gladly paid!
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05-20-2011, 09:39 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Posts: 22
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Quote:
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this can be a very dangerous maneuver
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Of course - any time you are 100 feet in the air, or going 100 mph, there is the distinct possibility of injuring your pink body if you do something wrong.
Motorized equipment must be respected. Heck, you can kill yourself by climbing up and falling off a ladder.
However, there is nothing inherently evil in the turnback. I compare it to flying in cloud. If you try to teach yourself to do it on the spur of the moment, it probably isn't going to work out very well.
But with training and practice, you can safely fly inside a cloud. Same thing for the turnback. Not sure why the turnback gets such horrid PR. Hand-flying in cloud is a lot more work.
__________________
BSc, ATPL, ICAS SAC, SFOC, AP, PRM, L39 check pilot
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05-20-2011, 09:45 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 3,351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pierre smith
Andrew, you must be a fine stick, doing low level, formation outside and ground level....however, there are many young, low-time guys on here.
I'm sincere and not insulting your post but I have to warn the lower time guys that this can be a very dangerous maneuver, so don't make it sound so incredibly easy, just for safety's sake...no flame intended, really. I'm also a very high time pilot (18,500?) and it makes it difficult to fill a 100 hour pilot's shoes.
I've done it in my -6A from 250, 350 and 500' and twice, almost overshot the far end of the runway because of such a high climb rate of the RV's and their excellent glide ratio. I can just about assure you that if you do a quick turnaround from 500' ASL, you'll go off the far end. My runway is 5,000' long but I still had to go around.
Best,
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I absolutely agree with all the thing you said Pierre. For those who flying is second nature, this maybe of a routing task but for those of us who are new to flying it can be nerve racking to do such simple turn yet so close to the ground.
During my practice from 600' I would have gone off the far end if I had not done a go-around. So, I am not sure Vx is the best strategy if you are flying a RV. Keep in mind that you will be closer to the stall speed and less time to react, should she let go of her power.
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Mehrdad
N825SM RV7A - IO360M1B - SOLD
N825MS RV14A - IO390 - Flying
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