|
-
POSTING RULES

-
Donate yearly (please).
-
Advertise in here!
-
Today's Posts
|
Insert Pics
|

05-04-2011, 12:47 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,685
|
|
True Hazards ?
There is no mystery about the hazards of a low pass or buzzing - the the margin of error for not hitting the ground or objects on it is reduced to a minimum and at uncontrolled airports the collision or wake turbulence hazards with other aircraft are increased. Low flying is a are a part of flying and as long as the FAA rules are followed it is the responsibility of the pilot to complete the flight without failure. Whether it is called a low pass or a "buzzing" depends on the intentions of the pilot and the self appointed performance police. I'm embarrassed that I lowered my standards to comment on this but my real PO point is the suggestion that running out of fuel is not a real problem with real causes that could be addressed and produce some really helpful information to pilots who actually get out of the pattern and travel in real world variable conditions.
Bob Axsom
|

05-04-2011, 02:01 PM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,652
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Axsom
... but my real PO point is the suggestion that running out of fuel is not a real problem... Bob Axsom
|
Where did you read that running out of fuel is not a "real problem" Bob? If that is found in this thread, I missed it.
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.
Michael Robinson
______________
Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
|

05-04-2011, 04:29 PM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Brisbane Qld. Aust.
Posts: 2,271
|
|
Phylan Pan
Quote:
|
So...just for the record, are we arguing that a low pass in and of itself is dangerous? Or rather, that a low pass is dangerous because people do other dangerous stuff (low level acro) while doing them?
|
No a low pass is not in itself dangerous, when it is done by a pilot doing a precautionary search or strip inspection, but even then its best done at half flap and an appropriate speed and a height to examine the strip etc etc as you were trained to do.
A low pass done in a controlled environment, no other objects, man nor beast is different, and if its done aerobatically by a trained qualified and briefed pilot say at an airshow.
Big difference between that and "Hold My Beer and Watch This!!"
For those who have not read about the BAC Strikemaster crash, from the limited early information and report I can only make assumptions, officially yet it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck. Basically only new to type from a A36 Bonanza, ferrying someone elses jet, not aerbatic endorsed, buzzed his local strip after a phone call ahead (hold my beer and watch this), and it looks like he G-LOC'ed or just had no idea how to handle such a jet when it ran out of airspeed at low level.
I have one friend out of hundreds of pilot mates I would be happy with doing aero's in an old jet, and he would not be doing that under the same circumstances. Pro's don't behave like that. Confusing ambition with ability is the mother of all prangs.
Ken K
You are onto it, BUT the problem is the low pass is part of the greater "show off" display. Yes the strikemaster was lost after the pass but his fate was sealed long before the pass. When the NTSB release a final report it will be interesting to see what they say and what they do not.
I ask you how many Airline Jets do you see doing things like this at busy populate aerodromes? why? Sure the military do them away from town and the display teams do them at public events, but that is where the differences are.
|

05-04-2011, 05:06 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: WA State
Posts: 192
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by RBD
Again, as others have stated, there just isn't much of a margin of safety should something go wrong.
|
The same can be said for aerobatics, or formation flying, or flying over water, or over mountains, flying single engine IFR/IMC, or shooting approaches when weather is at minimums. By choosing to place themselves in these and other situations each pilot exercises his/her discretion as to the level of risk they are willing to accept. My point is that reducing the margin of safety is NOT synonymous with being unsafe, reckless, stupid, or some of the other pejorative descriptors that have been recently used on various safety threads to describe pilots that do low approaches.
It appears that I?m in the minority of posters here, but I really enjoy seeing airplanes (especially cool ones!) do low, high speed passes! My personal observation of others over the years ? including pilots ? that have witnessed this activity is that enjoyment is generally shared by the majority as long as the passes are done with appropriate consideration (see F1Boss?s post - #25 of this thread - for a good set of guidelines). Perhaps now that the ?self appointed performance police? are on the rise this attitude will change?I sure hope not. I have done plenty of passes myself, and I must say I?ve never once felt ?dirty? afterwards. My personal motivation is that they are fun and exhilarating. Sometimes there have been people on the ground to see me, sometimes not. Either way, I have the same amount of fun.
Hearing how people think and process is always interesting to me. Several safety-related posts have assigned unflattering motives to pilots who do passes, with "showing off? being mentioned more than once. Are these motives merely assumed, or are those who are accused of this offense actually known by their accusers; i.e., do they know their personalities well enough to really understand their motivation? Perhaps some do, but the inference I get is that this ?showing off? motive is largely being projected. It would behoove all of us not to participate in this practice, and give our fellow pilots (and their motives) the benefit of the doubt unless or until such time that doing so is demonstrated to be unwarranted. 
__________________
Will McClain
N954WM (Reserved)
|

05-04-2011, 05:28 PM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,652
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeyMike
...It appears that I?m in the minority of posters here, but I really enjoy seeing airplanes (especially cool ones!) do low, high speed passes!...
|
Make no mistake about it, so do I so long as it is what I consider to be the "right" circumstances.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeyMike
...I have done plenty of passes myself, and I must say I?ve never once felt ?dirty? afterwards. My personal motivation is that they are fun and exhilarating...
|
Since my comment looks like it was misunderstood, let me clarify: I do them all the time and enjoy doing it. BUT, it is when I allow myself to be drawn into a situation that I normally would not go (like in front of a crowd at a fly in), that I feel "dirty". I'm a little ashamed that I let emotion get the best of me - that's all.
Reading this thread makes one thing clear to me - Low passes are going to continue as long as there are pilots. I submit that our collective mission is to make sure less of them wind up in the FAA accident database.
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.
Michael Robinson
______________
Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
|

05-06-2011, 03:13 PM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Fresno, CA
Posts: 321
|
|
You are not alone
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeyMike
The same can be said for aerobatics, or formation flying, or flying over water, or over mountains, flying single engine IFR/IMC, or shooting approaches when weather is at minimums. By choosing to place themselves in these and other situations each pilot exercises his/her discretion as to the level of risk they are willing to accept. My point is that reducing the margin of safety is NOT synonymous with being unsafe, reckless, stupid, or some of the other pejorative descriptors that have been recently used on various safety threads to describe pilots that do low approaches.
It appears that I?m in the minority of posters here, but I really enjoy seeing airplanes (especially cool ones!) do low, high speed passes! My personal observation of others over the years ? including pilots ? that have witnessed this activity is that enjoyment is generally shared by the majority as long as the passes are done with appropriate consideration (see F1Boss?s post - #25 of this thread - for a good set of guidelines). Perhaps now that the ?self appointed performance police? are on the rise this attitude will change?I sure hope not. I have done plenty of passes myself, and I must say I?ve never once felt ?dirty? afterwards. My personal motivation is that they are fun and exhilarating. Sometimes there have been people on the ground to see me, sometimes not. Either way, I have the same amount of fun.
Hearing how people think and process is always interesting to me. Several safety-related posts have assigned unflattering motives to pilots who do passes, with "showing off? being mentioned more than once. Are these motives merely assumed, or are those who are accused of this offense actually known by their accusers; i.e., do they know their personalities well enough to really understand their motivation? Perhaps some do, but the inference I get is that this ?showing off? motive is largely being projected. It would behoove all of us not to participate in this practice, and give our fellow pilots (and their motives) the benefit of the doubt unless or until such time that doing so is demonstrated to be unwarranted. 
|
I'll stand beside you on this post. You are not alone. I suspect you aren't even a minority, it's just that most don't have the time or emotional energy available to engage in the debate.
The self-appointed safety police might not realize that EVERY SINGLE report the FSDO receives MUST be investigated.
People who attribute motives to other pilot's behavior bother the heck out of me. I don't fly a low pass down the runway at my sky park to show off...I do it to check for the stupid neighbor's dog that has been out on the runway numerous times (I defy you to see a miniature Chow dog from pattern altitude, and somebody back me up on the math...a 30 pound dog hit by a 40 or 50 mph airplane isn't going to end well for either dog or airplane).
Perception is key. Anybody with an RV will know that my pass at 20" MP and 2000 RPM isn't really a "High Speed Pass" but the spam can drivers out there are frightened by my 150 Knot low flyby. I have one hand-wringing neighbor in particular that just can't convince his wife that I'm not going to splatter myself across the field. He calls the FSDO all the time.
I've been contacted by the FSDO on this topic. On my third visit to the FSDO, their exact words were "Tim, I can't tell you that you are doing anything wrong, but I will violate you on FAR 91.13 if you don't make the complaints stop" I make my living with my pilot's ticket. I'm not doing anything wrong but they will declare me "careless and reckless" so that they don't have to deal with whiners. "Houston we have lift off..." I went ballistic.
I was prepared to take this to court and become a test case on this issue. How is my low pass in violation of a regulation? People will spout "No Flight below 500 feet except for the purpose of landing..." Ok, how is my low pass to inspect the runway environment ANY different than performing a practice ILS to a missed approach? In the case of the ILS, the pilot doesn't intend to land so the by hand-wringer's logic she or he shouldn't go below 500 feet? They will say "You're going too fast"...really, I shoot ILS's in the jet at 140-160 KIAS all the time, that's why there are Category C and D minima.
The FSDO guy's solution was to advise me that I should lie and say I flubbed the approach and had to go around. If I'm wrong, stupid or doing something unsafe, by all means please counsel the **** out of me but I will not lie about my conduct in an airplane.
For all the high and mighty folks who are naive enough to believe that they've actually conducted a flight for which not one single regulation was violated, I have news for you. The regulations are intentionally written so as to allow for selective interpretation and arbitrary enforcement. You ALL taxi too fast, the regulation reads "No faster than a man can walk." Who among us hasn't ever flown within 5 miles of an uncontrolled airport below 3000 agl without intending to land? We all study current charts and AFD's regarding every airport we might land at every flight, right? A full and complete weather briefing...every flight? Don't think that our pretty Garmins with XM would qualify as a full brief. NOTAMS? FDC NOTAMS? You do perform a weight and balance for every leg, right? Everybody who's actually calculated the density altitude and runway requirements prior to each flight, raise your hand.
I operate in a sector of aviation where safety is a CULTURE. I not only look at every thing I do but also the way I do it to see if there's a safer, smarter, or more economical way to accomplish the goal of going home every night.
SMS (Safety Management Systems) is coming to GA here in the USA...it's a pain in the butt and the hand wringers will love it. ICAO currently requires pole vaulting over every mouse turd, and soon we here in the USofA will be doing it too.
In closing, I will pass along how I feel about the FARs. In general, they are great, people usually paid in blood for the lessons put forth in any given regulation. While not every single reg leads to more safety, I don't know of any regulations that actually detract from safety.
To those who say "We must each be our brother's keeper" I say..."let (s)he without sin cast the first stone."
__________________
Timothy Cone
Sierra Skypark (KE79) Fresno CA
RV-8, XP360, RV200
Flown Sept. 12, 2007
1600 hours on the hobbs and loving it
|

05-06-2011, 03:29 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: na
Posts: 1,457
|
|
Tim, you are spot-on!
|

05-06-2011, 05:57 PM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 1,324
|
|
Hand raised, sort of...
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcone1
Everybody who's actually calculated the density altitude and runway requirements prior to each flight, raise your hand.
|
Several of us on this forum do, it is called Part 121 flying. That would be scheduled airline operations, the ones with the best safety record. No, I am not saying that one has to "do the numbers" on every takeoff in an RV, but when things get away from normal, short runway, high temperature, high altitude, close to gross weight, or a combination of any of these a little calculating may save your hide.
John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
|

05-06-2011, 06:50 PM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sutter Creek, CA
Posts: 842
|
|
Well Said, Tim!
Thanks for a great post, Tim. It saved me the time of commenting, as you covered much of what I wanted to state.
I know which FSDO you deal with, and some day over a frosty one, I will tell you my horror story of what they pulled on me 25 years ago.
__________________
Mark Ohlau
RV-6 N506MM VAF #1410
2017 Donation Made
|

05-06-2011, 11:53 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: KRTS
Posts: 1,798
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcone1
I'll stand beside you on this post. You are not alone. I suspect you aren't even a minority, it's just that most don't have the time or emotional energy available to engage in the debate.
The self-appointed safety police might not realize that EVERY SINGLE report the FSDO receives MUST be investigated.
People who attribute motives to other pilot's behavior bother the heck out of me. I don't fly a low pass down the runway at my sky park to show off...I do it to check for the stupid neighbor's dog that has been out on the runway numerous times (I defy you to see a miniature Chow dog from pattern altitude, and somebody back me up on the math...a 30 pound dog hit by a 40 or 50 mph airplane isn't going to end well for either dog or airplane).
Perception is key. Anybody with an RV will know that my pass at 20" MP and 2000 RPM isn't really a "High Speed Pass" but the spam can drivers out there are frightened by my 150 Knot low flyby. I have one hand-wringing neighbor in particular that just can't convince his wife that I'm not going to splatter myself across the field. He calls the FSDO all the time.
I've been contacted by the FSDO on this topic. On my third visit to the FSDO, their exact words were "Tim, I can't tell you that you are doing anything wrong, but I will violate you on FAR 91.13 if you don't make the complaints stop" I make my living with my pilot's ticket. I'm not doing anything wrong but they will declare me "careless and reckless" so that they don't have to deal with whiners. "Houston we have lift off..." I went ballistic.
I was prepared to take this to court and become a test case on this issue. How is my low pass in violation of a regulation? People will spout "No Flight below 500 feet except for the purpose of landing..." Ok, how is my low pass to inspect the runway environment ANY different than performing a practice ILS to a missed approach? In the case of the ILS, the pilot doesn't intend to land so the by hand-wringer's logic she or he shouldn't go below 500 feet? They will say "You're going too fast"...really, I shoot ILS's in the jet at 140-160 KIAS all the time, that's why there are Category C and D minima.
The FSDO guy's solution was to advise me that I should lie and say I flubbed the approach and had to go around. If I'm wrong, stupid or doing something unsafe, by all means please counsel the **** out of me but I will not lie about my conduct in an airplane.
For all the high and mighty folks who are naive enough to believe that they've actually conducted a flight for which not one single regulation was violated, I have news for you. The regulations are intentionally written so as to allow for selective interpretation and arbitrary enforcement. You ALL taxi too fast, the regulation reads "No faster than a man can walk." Who among us hasn't ever flown within 5 miles of an uncontrolled airport below 3000 agl without intending to land? We all study current charts and AFD's regarding every airport we might land at every flight, right? A full and complete weather briefing...every flight? Don't think that our pretty Garmins with XM would qualify as a full brief. NOTAMS? FDC NOTAMS? You do perform a weight and balance for every leg, right? Everybody who's actually calculated the density altitude and runway requirements prior to each flight, raise your hand.
I operate in a sector of aviation where safety is a CULTURE. I not only look at every thing I do but also the way I do it to see if there's a safer, smarter, or more economical way to accomplish the goal of going home every night.
SMS (Safety Management Systems) is coming to GA here in the USA...it's a pain in the butt and the hand wringers will love it. ICAO currently requires pole vaulting over every mouse turd, and soon we here in the USofA will be doing it too.
In closing, I will pass along how I feel about the FARs. In general, they are great, people usually paid in blood for the lessons put forth in any given regulation. While not every single reg leads to more safety, I don't know of any regulations that actually detract from safety.
To those who say "We must each be our brother's keeper" I say..."let (s)he without sin cast the first stone."
|
Best response to the self proclaimed enforcement police written.
Some of the attitudes on this board are so COUNTER productive, it's frightening. There are legal and safe ways to operate in the low altitude environment, the personal level acceptable safety is just that though, personal.
BTW a slander lawsuit may quiet your neighbor down real quick.
__________________
Next?, TBD
IAR-823, SOLD
RV-8, SOLD
RV-7, SOLD
Last edited by Sig600 : 05-06-2011 at 11:57 PM.
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:54 AM.
|