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View Poll Results: How well does your Andair F.I. boost pump work?
I installed an Andair Boost pump in my flying airplane and it works fine. 11 11.96%
I installed an Andair Boost pump but am not flying yet. 28 30.43%
I installed an Andair Boost pump and it did not work. 3 3.26%
I tested my Andair Boost pump before installation and it did not work. 2 2.17%
Andair replaced my bad boost pump but the 2nd one works fine. 2 2.17%
I am flying behind a different brand of boost pump. 29 31.52%
I installed a different boost pump but am not flying. 17 18.48%
I installed a different boost pump and it did not work. 0 0%
Voters: 92. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 04-27-2011, 10:40 PM
RV6_flyer's Avatar
RV6_flyer RV6_flyer is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NC25
Posts: 3,507
Default Andair Boost Pump

Andair makes the nicest fuel valves for Experimental airplanes and recently came out with a boost pump.

How many people are FLYING with an Andair Boost pump?

How well does Andair Boost pump work in flight?

What is your fuel pressure with Andair Boost pump on?

What is your fuel pressure Andair Boost pump pump off?
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Gary A. Sobek
NC25 RV-6
Flying
3,400+ hours
Where is N157GS
Building RV-8 S/N: 80012

To most people, the sky is the limit.
To those who love aviation, the sky is home.

Last edited by RV6_flyer : 04-27-2011 at 10:44 PM.
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  #2  
Old 04-28-2011, 09:03 AM
Phil's Avatar
Phil Phil is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Waco, Texas
Posts: 1,658
Default

Installed but not flying yet. Here's the video of my installation on the RV-10.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3mpcapeBA8
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  #3  
Old 04-28-2011, 11:54 PM
SebsRV7A SebsRV7A is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Henderson, NV (KBVU)
Posts: 129
Default replaced AFP pump w/ Andair

Gary,
I replaced my AFP pump with the Andair for the massive decrease in connections (I had a couple of them seep). 30 hours or so on it now. It's a bit louder, but can't hear it when flying, so it doesn't matter.
I'll mention it to you at the Clinic this weekend if I think of it.

Seb Trost
RV-7A
Boulder City,NV
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  #4  
Old 04-29-2011, 01:34 AM
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BSwayze BSwayze is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Molalla, Oregon
Posts: 955
Default

Mine, too, is installed but not flying yet. Here's a shot of my installation in my RV-7A:



I really like this pump so far. I also bought the Andair fuel selector valve. More on my installation on my web log page here:

Fuel Pump Installation
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Bruce Swayze
RV-7A Standard Build
First flight November 3, 2019!
http://www.BrucesRV7A.com
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  #5  
Old 05-03-2011, 06:59 PM
RV6_flyer's Avatar
RV6_flyer RV6_flyer is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NC25
Posts: 3,507
Exclamation 4 working and 1 failed (20% failure rate) / Why I started the poll Part 1

It has been about 6 days since I started the poll. My Andair pump did not work out of the box. I see that there are four (4) flying and are working. Looks like a 20% failure rate as of this small sampling. I only tested my pump because of hear say that someones pump did not work. I hear that they sent it back and got their money back. I do believe that Andair tested the pump before shipping it. I could smell Stoddard Solvent when I connected it to a 100LL fuel source.

My pump was purchased through the VAF group buy. I do not need the pump right away but have a 360 rebuild project in my hangar to install in my flying RV-6 in the future. (The sooner the better.)

I did not want to pay to ship the pump back and then get a new one. Being an Electrical Engineer during my day job, I am also an FAA A&P, and DAR. I did not see a problem with opening up the pump. Maybe it can be fixed. All of us are human after all and do make mistekes. (intentional miss-spelling)

Seeing what is inside the pump and the reason that it failed, I now know that I do not want this pump flying on my airplane. IMHO, it is not a good enough pump to use on aircraft. IF I am not able to get my money back from Andair, I will NOT sell it to someone for use on an aircraft as I do not like the design. (I am not a mechanical design engineer so my advice may only be worth what you are paying for it.)

I emailed Andair about the pump. Their response and my email to them follows pasted in but first I took a look at this YouTube video.


Note: I am editing the email addresses to slow down spammer.
--- insert ---
Dear Gary,

We would not send out a unit that had not been tested and checked, however any amount of testing and checking sometimes cannot discover some of the problems that manifest themselves in production. I am not going to give lots of excuses to you as you are a professional engineer, but just to say mistakes happen and we all try to learn from them.

In your case, we, here at the factory are very concerned that you have experienced this and we will do anything and everything to bring this to a happy conclusion.

We would welcome the opportunity to offer you a replacement, if you were to agree to this we would pay the return shipping or if you are at Oshkosh this year take it back from you there.

There are a few answers to you fears.

1. The lack of priming: The pump was designed to prime at least to 3 metres and this is normal for all our pumps. The pump you have, that is not priming at all could been caused by two factors, one the "O" ring on one of the check valves becoming dislodged, (and I think you found this to be happening on one of the check valves when you disassembled the unit) this would certainly prevent priming as the return spring would not have the force to close the shuttle against a dislodged "O"ring. The second is remiss on our part through not carrying out any preserving process so the internal parts would be in lubricated condition for start-up.

2. Your concern regarding the very small pin on the outer check valve holder this is purely a location pin for position it has no condition in bearing or torque it is purely position.

3. The lack of flow and pressure, this again is a probable issue with the dislodged "O" ring.

The conclusions: In the months since the VAF sale we have been developing the pump further, it now has the controller integrated on a saddle on top of the main body, some internal parts have been redesigned to reduce noise and to improve performance. the "O" rings on the check valves have now a groove that they sit in and the possibility of sliding down the shuttle barrel has been eliminated .

I hope the explanation above goes someway in helping explain how this may have occurred .


Kind Regards
Andy Phillips
Andair Ltd

PS. You may or maynot know that we test all or products on our own aircraft. Our early pumps were tested on our RV6 and the pump setup you have is running on our RV7 both running well.



Email: andair at andair dot co dot uk
Web: www.andair.co.uk




----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary A. Sobek" Gary at RVdar dot com
To: Pump at andair dot co dot uk; andair at andair dot co dot uk
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 6:16 AM
Subject: Boost Pump


Dear Sir:

I purchased one of your boost pumps as part of the VAF deal. I purchased your pump sight unseen based on the quality of the valves I have seen with your name on.

I tested the pump and it would not self prime. I had to prime it to get it to pump. I did not run it more than 45 seconds without being primed. I used 100LL as the fuel I was attempting to pump. The pump did not appear to pump enough fuel to keep a Lycoming 360 running at full power with only the boost pump supplying fuel.

Since you are in England and I am in the US, I did not want to send the pump back if it could be fixed. More investigation was conducted.

Here is the link to info on what was found.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AocoUdGnyGw

This is not a pump that I would use in an aircraft. The pump is not good enough for use in my aircraft. I hope that you are not going to tell me that I cannot get a refund because the pump was disassembled and discovered not to be suitable for Aircraft use.

I am an FAA licensed A&P, DAR, and am a Engineer by training. The aircraft that I was hoping to install the pump in is an RV-6 that I built and have been flying for almost 2,500 hours. I am presently flying with an O-320 but have an IO-360 sitting in my hangar. The pump was going to be used with the engine swap out.

I am not happy with the discovery that the pump is not suitable for aircraft use but I am very happy that I found out before it was installed.

I am very concerned about the quality of your boost pump. A friend died in a fuel injected aircraft like mine when his engine quit on takeoff and his aircraft flipped over when it landed off the paved runway. His neck was broken when the aircraft flipped over. The NTSB investigation found vapor lock as the cause of engine stoppage. The engine was ran during the NTSB investigation and the boost pump was found not to operate. The lesson that I learned from his accident is that the boost pump must work to help prevent vapor lock of the hot engine on a hot day.

Respectfully,

--
Gary A. Sobek

When once you have tasted flight,
you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been, and there you will always long to return.
- Leonardo da Vinci
--- end insert ---

See next message for part II
__________________
Gary A. Sobek
NC25 RV-6
Flying
3,400+ hours
Where is N157GS
Building RV-8 S/N: 80012

To most people, the sky is the limit.
To those who love aviation, the sky is home.
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  #6  
Old 05-03-2011, 07:01 PM
RV6_flyer's Avatar
RV6_flyer RV6_flyer is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NC25
Posts: 3,507
Exclamation 4 working and 1 failed (20% failure rate) / Why I started the poll Part 2

Part 2 from last message. (Was too long for one message.)

I am of the opinion that all the pumps purchased should be tested by their owners before they are flown. I recommend testing before you install them. Does it produce self prime, produce a large enough volume for your engine, and will it still pump a large enough volume when a restriction is created to create some pressure?

I do think the issue with the pumps needs to be brought to the attention of all Andair pump owners. I believe that the pump is NOT safe for aircraft use where the o-rings can slip out and cause the pump not to work. I also do not like the small pin or the wear marks.

I know that vacuum pumps have a shear coupling to prevent damage to the engine if the vacuum pump were to seize. In a fuel pump used for aircraft, I would rather the MOTOR seize up instead of breaking a part in the pump. I may hear the pump running but not pumping fuel.

What would you do?

I will not want to use this pump design in my aircraft.

I am concerned that others have the pump that does not have the "improved" design with a grove for the o-rings. The o-ring could slide out of position causing the pump not to work just like you see in the video.

I am not a metallurgist but I question the use of D2 steel that is listed on Andair's pump brochure for the material. (The brochure says: "The Pump components are D2 tool steel providing unequalled wear characteristics.") All I know about D2 steel is what the first return from Google told me when I did a search of it.

I will take the pump with me to AirVenture and see if I can get a full or partial refund. I will not be asking for any money for the testing that was done and pointing out design issues. I hope the design issue are fixed before there is a crash. A new pump is a lot less expensive than needing to replace the entire airplane. Airplanes and pumps can be replaced but lives cannot.

Lets hear your two cents.
__________________
Gary A. Sobek
NC25 RV-6
Flying
3,400+ hours
Where is N157GS
Building RV-8 S/N: 80012

To most people, the sky is the limit.
To those who love aviation, the sky is home.
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  #7  
Old 05-03-2011, 07:58 PM
Walt's Avatar
Walt Walt is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Dallas/Ft Worth, TX
Posts: 5,686
Default

I like proven designs in my aircraft....



Weldon J 8100

CURRENT APPLICATIONS
Emergency Fuel Boost
Priming Injected Engines
Fuel Transfer

PERFORMANCE
Rated Flow Range: 25 to 45 G.P. H.
Rated Pressure: 15 to 50 P.S.I.
Temperature Range: -65oF to +185oF

CURRENT FLUIDS
Gasoline
Jet Fuels
Diesel Fuels
Oils
SPECIAL FEATURES
Positive Displacement
Cammed Vane
Self-Priming
High Suction Lift
Integral Pressure Relief Valve

The 8100 Series ?J? Pumps
incorporate all of the features
of the 8000 Series in addition to:
Low Pressure Drop Bypass Valve Permitting Passage of fuel through an Idle Pump

2.5 Lbs. with Permanent Magnet
12 or 28 Volt DC Motor
__________________
Walt Aronow, DFW, TX (52F)

EXP Aircraft Services LLC
Specializing in RV Condition Inspections, Maintenance, Avionics Upgrades
Dynamic Prop Balancing, Pitot-Static Altmeter/Transponder Certification
FAA Certified Repair Station, AP/IA/FCC GROL, EAA Technical Counselor
Authorized Garmin G3X Dealer/Installer
RV7A built 2004, 1700+ hrs, New Titan IO-370, Bendix Mags
Website: ExpAircraft.com, Email: walt@expaircraft.com, Cell: 972-746-5154
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  #8  
Old 05-03-2011, 09:44 PM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 12,256
Default

I guess that what bothers me most about the problem with Gary's pump is that, according to Andair's email, they were aware of the problem with the O-ring slipping down the valve spool, (aware enough that they redesigned it), yet took no action to notify the community of folks that already had the pump with the problem design that there might, indeed, be a problem.

Yes, this is experimental aviation, and yes, that makes us all "testers"....but the essences of flight testing is the sharing of information.

Granted, Andair has no idea who has their pumps - but the Experimental community is small enough that a few notes to a few forums would put out an alert that would reach a huge number of folks quickly. They have had a good reputaiton in the community for a number of years - I fly their valve in my -8,and am impressed with it. But anyone can have a design problem, and when they do, they need to make sure people know about it.

Gary showed me this data yesterday, and from what I have seen, if I had one of these pumps, I would AT LEAST be talking to Andair to find out if it has the new or old valve design.
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Paul F. Dye
Editor at Large - KITPLANES Magazine
RV-8 - N188PD - "Valkyrie"
RV-6 (By Marriage) - N164MS - "Mikey"
RV-3B - N13PL - "Tsamsiyu"
A&P, EAA Tech Counselor/Flight Advisor
Dayton Valley Airpark (A34)
http://Ironflight.com

Last edited by Ironflight : 05-04-2011 at 10:36 AM.
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  #9  
Old 05-04-2011, 10:26 AM
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pmccoy pmccoy is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Orange County CA
Posts: 646
Default Andair Pump

I have the original Andair pump installed in my project. I bought it at Oshkosh when they were first released, so I know it must be the old design. I have sent an email to Andair, requesting any information as to a refund, exchange or upgrade to the new design. I will post their response when I get it.
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Peter McCoy
RV9A N35PM S/N:91335
First Flight: April 2013
Hobbs: 400 hours after Oshkosh 2017
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  #10  
Old 05-04-2011, 11:04 AM
Andair LTD Andair LTD is offline
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Havant, Hampshire, UK
Posts: 9
Default

Hi All
Owen/Andy from Andair here.
Look guys we're not in the business of making our customers feel uneasy about our products.
A lot of you out there have Andair products and as far as I know are happy with their performance. Our fuel boost pump has been developed over the years, there has been a great deal of research into the choice of materials and possible secnrios where failures might occur. Regarding this "O" ring discussion please be assured that there is no possiblity that the "O" ring could enter the fuel system, it is totally contained.
Andair is a progressive company we concentrate on fuel related equipment and have spent time and effort in producing a product that is special. The pump was developed through discussions with customers that requested a fresh look in terms of weight and performance. The early pumps are perfectly satisfactory but this company is continuously developing. Releasing the pump when we did was, we feel the correct time having spent so many hours and months on the test bench and flying with the prototypes.
Now this is our proposal.
Customers of the Group buy, and any other purchasers that feel uneasy about your fuel pumps this is what we would like to offer you. If you consider your purchase a bad move, then we will refund your money. If you would like to have your existing pump "up-graded" then we can do that for you. Andair ,I hope, has built a reputation of quality and relibility and we wish to continue to pursue that goal.
You can contact either of us through the company e-mail address
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