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  #51  
Old 05-03-2011, 05:56 AM
Captain Avgas Captain Avgas is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pierre smith View Post
That's a pretty quick build time for a -10!
Pierre, in retrospect that might have been a rather prophetic comment you made earlier in this thread (shortly after the first flight) given that the cause of the ensuing fire seems to have been a B-nut on the fuel pump that was not properly torqued.
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  #52  
Old 05-03-2011, 06:19 AM
David-aviator David-aviator is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tc1234c View Post
I got a few minutes before I have to go out of town. Here is a quick answer.

The first sign was low fuel pressure. I turned on the boost pump. The fuel flow was very high (don't remember the number).

After 10 minutes (I had a 20 nm trip with 32 kts headwind at 2,600' running 23/2300 I was doing 90 kts GS) and 4 nm from my destination I smell the smoke and began the sequence of event I reported before).

My plane landed 1.5 to 2 sm from the end of the runway and the surface wind was reported 4 kts from south. In a dive I estimate that I must be doing 140-150 mph. So it took a little more than 1 minute to travel the 2.2 sm. I must started turning toward the field less than 60 seconds from the time I smelled something.

First has been burning under the tunnel for a few minutes. By the time I noticed it must has burnt through the skin.

Big smoke came out within few seconds after I put off the initial fire along the edge of firewall and tunnel. Now I believe by that time the brake lines have been burnt through.

I am going back to the hangar next week to open the tunnel cover and assess the damage. FAA inspectors want to come and take a look too. I will definitely post pictures.
Thanks for the report, Ted.

First thing I am going to do as a result of your experience is make sure the EIS fuel flow warning is set to a number just above the normal take off fuel. Also, the low pressure warning will be checked. These are items that will indicate a leak before the fire.....

Excellent job flying the airplane. Very sorry the airplane is such a mess but what's really important is you walked away from it. It will be a while before you stop reliving this one.
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  #53  
Old 05-03-2011, 08:40 AM
Tonard Bales Tonard Bales is offline
 
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Location: Amityville, NY
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Default NOMEX

As a former race car driver I would have NEVER driven a single lap without wearing a NOMEX driver's suit, gloves, balaclava and FULL SET OF UNDERWEAR. When I read Doug's write up last week about his safety missive I had to ask myself why I wasn't doing the same thing in an aircraft? After all, the fuel lines on most aircraft travel through the cockpit.

I do believe adding a pair of NOMEX long johns, long sleeve top and gloves to our "Before Engine Start" checklist should be a serious consideration.

It could literally save your skin...
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  #54  
Old 05-03-2011, 10:14 AM
RVFlyer RVFlyer is offline
 
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Location: Rockwall, TX
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Default The best solution is??

Dan H- You've obviously researched insulation material options thoroughly. I have a 16yr old RV-4 that I didn't build. This particular incident and thread have made me seriously consider what is installed in my aircraft. I also suspect that better materials may have come to market since mine was built. What insulation did you choose for your RV?
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  #55  
Old 05-03-2011, 03:15 PM
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RVbySDI RVbySDI is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RVFlyer View Post
Dan H- You've obviously researched insulation material options thoroughly. I have a 16yr old RV-4 that I didn't build. This particular incident and thread have made me seriously consider what is installed in my aircraft. I also suspect that better materials may have come to market since mine was built. What insulation did you choose for your RV?
I am not Dan but his threads about firewall insulation talk about a ceramic fiber material sandwiched between a stainless steel and aluminum foil mounted on the engine side of the firewall. Here is a picture of my firewall installation of just such a setup. No glue used, just the mechanical fasteners that hold all the various components already on the firewall are what are holding the insulation on the firewall.


By steveingraham at 2010-04-05
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  #56  
Old 05-03-2011, 04:09 PM
scsmith scsmith is offline
 
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Default ABC extinguisers BAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike S View Post
Ted, the dry chem fire extinguisher residue needs to be cleaned up as soon as you can do so-------depending on what compound was used, it can be bad news for the aluminum
Mike, as a former fireman may be able to tell us much more, or recommend an expert to ask, but I have been told in the past that the stuff in ABC-type extinguishers is extremely corrosive to aluminum, and gets into riveted joints and is very bad.
It is worth considering the idea of building a whole new fuselage rather than repairing this one. At least discuss it with an expert before settling the insurance. If you need to replace the whole fuselage because of fire extinguisher powder, then that will be part of the settlement.

For this reason, I made sure that the extinguisher in my hangar is BC-type. And the small one in the airplane is halon. Unfortunately it is hard to influence what the fireman who shows up at the scene uses.
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  #57  
Old 05-03-2011, 04:26 PM
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Mike S Mike S is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scsmith View Post
Mike, as a former fireman may be able to tell us much more, or recommend an expert to ask, but I have been told in the past that the stuff in ABC-type extinguishers is extremely corrosive to aluminum, and gets into riveted joints and is very bad.
It is worth considering the idea of building a whole new fuselage rather than repairing this one. At least discuss it with an expert before settling the insurance. If you need to replace the whole fuselage because of fire extinguisher powder, then that will be part of the settlement.

For this reason, I made sure that the extinguisher in my hangar is BC-type. And the small one in the airplane is halon. Unfortunately it is hard to influence what the fireman who shows up at the scene uses.
Steve, I was always in my told in my training that the stuff was corrosive also, and that is the basis of my comments to Ted.

I did go online to research the MSDS for ABD powder, but could not find any reference to corrosive listing--------but that doesn't mean it aint there.

My fire service tenure was over 8 years ago, so there is a chance the extinguishing agent has been changed-------but better safe than sorry.

There are a lot of fire extinguishers sold that are make of aluminum-----for whatever that is worth in the discussion.
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  #58  
Old 05-03-2011, 05:26 PM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike S View Post
Steve, I was always in my told in my training that the stuff was corrosive also, and that is the basis of my comments to Ted.

I did go online to research the MSDS for ABD powder, but could not find any reference to corrosive listing--------but that doesn't mean it aint there.

My fire service tenure was over 8 years ago, so there is a chance the extinguishing agent has been changed-------but better safe than sorry.

There are a lot of fire extinguishers sold that are make of aluminum-----for whatever that is worth in the discussion.

My guess Mike - a rural fire department's dry chem extinguishers probably haven't been CHARGED for more than eight years!

I doubt that the stuff has changed much, and I know that it makes a heck of a mess - I was told my an insurance guy in our department that if you use a standard size fire department one on an engine compartment, the car is likely totaled these days.

Paul
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  #59  
Old 05-03-2011, 05:40 PM
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tc1234c tc1234c is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanH View Post
From Ted's Picasa album....

The circled features are the melted/missing sections of the two brake lines. Note their location; well forward of the melted/missing floor section, and above the Ozite insulation. Given the insulation was thus between the hot firewall base and the melted sections, I assume the insulation ignited, then melted the lines.

Ted, did the brake lines melt anywhere else near the bare firewall, perhaps someplace above and forward of the heat duct cross tube?

No matter really....another observation: It is possible that the fire streaming back from the cowling exit was a nice tight narrow stream, but it is unlikely. So, why did it burn through only the tunnel floor and not floor areas in either footwell just outboard of the tunnel walls?

When you heat one surface of a panel, how hot it gets is heavily influenced by how readily it can shed heat from the opposite surface of the panel. In this case the tunnel floor burned through because it was being heated on both sides, unlike the footwell floor areas. There was a fire in the tunnel before the tunnel floor burned through.





Dan,

I believe the broke segments are right behind the firewall. The remaining Ozite insulation you see is attached to the firewall. The insulation on the floor are gone. The bottom with nutplates is actually on the bottom cowl that is forward and below the firewall. What you see below the brake line are part of the bottom cowl and left tailpipe. Bottom of the firewall is black band below the Ozite insulation.

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  #60  
Old 05-03-2011, 05:44 PM
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tc1234c tc1234c is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
I doubt that the stuff has changed much, and I know that it makes a heck of a mess - I was told my an insurance guy in our department that if you use a standard size fire department one on an engine compartment, the car is likely totaled these days.
I am afraid that might be the predicament. Well, I am still happy since I am not totaled.
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