Engine out patterns.

[rv6ejguy]

We were up today with light traffic and made 5 simulated forced landings. Great practice so see the effects of flaps and slipping and from how far out you can make it. Gives you a good chance to go through emergency procedure motions, throwing the right switches, checking mixture, switching tanks etc.

Highly recommended that you practice this stuff a least once a month. Won't be such a shock if it happens for real.

[sandifer]

Originally Posted by Av8torTom

Remember also side and forward slips are your friends when you're "high and tight".

I'd love to see these useless, confusing, and annoying distinctions eradicated from the aviation lexicon. BTW, what's the difference between the two if you're high? What kind of slip are you doing if you're losing altitude AND aligning for x-wind touchdown? Actually, don't answer that. Do you do a "side-turn" or a "forward-turn" when you establish a crab angle in a x-wind? End micro rant...

[sailvi767]

Thanks for the posts. I do try and fly a tight pattern but on the aircraft I purchased you have to carry some power to prevent popping on the engine. I know it does not hurt anything buts its annoying. The aircraft has very short exhaust stacks for speed so you have to crack the engine just off idle just a bit to quiet things down. I also prefer knowing I can make the runway if needed should the engine take a vacation! The high key type pattern is more for a enroute engine failure.
The other issue of course is that in flying the regular pattern I like in the RV you have to be solo in the pattern. I can get 2 or 3 times as many landings alone in the pattern as I can with a single 172 sharing. The size of patterns being taught in training today certainly seem larger then I remember. I have no idea why you need a 1 to 3 mile final in a Cessna! You could take a nap on the long final! Lets not even get into the fuel costs per landing.
I am doing the engine out work so I have a good frame of reference if its ever needed for real. I considered a 360 degree pattern some mention using and also used that in the Navy. The 270 option appeals to me just a bit more because I feel I can scan the landing area better in the RV6 checking wind ect.. In RV8 the 360 might be preferred. Both patterns are used by Naval aircraft depending on the aircraft type. High key in a A-4 was 7000 feet AGL for the 270 degree option!!!
Still wondering how much different the glide ratio would be with the engine shut down verses idle with the prop at 2700 RPM. The aircraft really does give great control between the flaps and slipping so might not be that much of a issue. Next week if I can get a empty pattern I might bump things up 1000 feet and pull the mixture making a simulated approach with everything bumped up a 1000. If that goes well I will try a couple with the mixture pulled to a landing. I know there are varied opinions on if this is a good idea to actually pull the mixture in training but I will pick a long runway and perfect conditions.
Are there any engine considerations in pulling the mixture. I will off course insure its been properly cooled first. I know these might sound like basic questions but my piston engine experience is limited at best and I want to insure nothing I do can harm the engine. Any issues with restarts to be aware of when the mixture is pushed back in? Any lubrication issues with a engine windmilling but shut down? Oil pressure should be fine but there may be things I am not considering. I read another thread that advocated true engine out practice but can't find it with the search engine now. Thanks for all the help!!

George

[Toobuilder]

George,

Don't let the "popping" influence how you fly the airplane... That's just what piston engines do.

Generally, (i.e. for this discussion) windmilling an engine will not hurt anything.

The same can be said for the decision to "pull the mixture" - 99.9% of the time it will restart as soon as the mixture goes back in. That said, simply be prepared to take her all the way to the ground if you do pull the red knob.

Before you take that step, you should try the SFO with the prop pulled all the way out (windmilling). It will be a dramatic difference from what you know now.

[Kevin Horton]

Originally Posted by sailvi767

if I decide to pull the mixture and try one with the engine off what considerations I should keep in mind.

You'll almost certainly need higher key altitudes with mixture pulled than you do at idle. The place to figure this out is at altitude, not close to the ground. Do several patterns at altitude, with engine at idle, and the same airspeeds and bank angles as you used at the airport. Note the altitude loss from high key until you are on final. Now try again with the mixture pulled, and note how much more altitude is lost. Adjust key altitudes as required.

[N941WR]

George,

Take it to Statesville, not 14A. Set your touchdown point as the middle of the runway. That way, if you are short, you won't have to restart. Same thing if you are long, you will still have plenty of room.

The wind can be a problem coming over the trees at 14A. Not to mention the issue of landing up or down hill.

[BigglesRV7A]

Some years ago, I undertook an 'Advanced Flight Safety (Low Level) course with a CFI here in AUSTRALIA called Graeme Boatman. He taught a simple and what was for me a most effective way to get into any paddock, ALA or if your lucky enough a main road etc. Once you've completed all your checks etc, confirmed engine is dead, with landing area identified, approach into it directly all the while sitting on the final approach side.

The trick is to use 'S' turns to delay arrival, coupled with side slipping etc to establish an appropriate approach, all the time basically remaining on what would normally be your Final Approach. You can descend most aircraft pretty quickly when you need to even if your holding a couple of thousand feet above the field to begin with using the above technique. Doing a circuit using the old high key, low key etc, is just more prone to miss judgement for almost all pilots. Once your height is 'visually' judged to be right for final, the landing area is commited to though you have had a bunch more time to judge headwind, look for powerpoles, wires etc all the time basically staying over the same point until it is looking correct in your field of view. Having learnt and used both ways, I use the simpler approach all the time now with confidence. Here in Australia we certainly don't have the number of built-up areas that you guys do over there, however the technique works what every options your luck ends up giving you.

Main thing, learn how to fly your plane slow, to best L/D and also know how it flies, 'drops' once you get below this.

Cheers, Greg

[sailvi767]

Originally Posted by N941WR

George,

Take it to Statesville, not 14A. Set your touchdown point as the middle of the runway. That way, if you are short, you won't have to restart. Same thing if you are long, you will still have plenty of room.

The wind can be a problem coming over the trees at 14A. Not to mention the issue of landing up or down hill.

Bill, I agree, I don't do any training at 14A. They also don't want the noise there.

George

[rv6ejguy]

Originally Posted by BigglesRV7A

Some years ago, I undertook an 'Advanced Flight Safety (Low Level) course with a CFI here in AUSTRALIA called Graeme Boatman. He taught a simple and what was for me a most effective way to get into any paddock, ALA or if your lucky enough a main road etc. Once you've completed all your checks etc, confirmed engine is dead, with landing area identified, approach into it directly all the while sitting on the final approach side.

The trick is to use 'S' turns to delay arrival, coupled with side slipping etc to establish an appropriate approach, all the time basically remaining on what would normally be your Final Approach. You can descend most aircraft pretty quickly when you need to even if your holding a couple of thousand feet above the field to begin with using the above technique. Doing a circuit using the old high key, low key etc, is just more prone to miss judgement for almost all pilots. Once your height is 'visually' judged to be right for final, the landing area is commited to though you have had a bunch more time to judge headwind, look for powerpoles, wires etc all the time basically staying over the same point until it is looking correct in your field of view. Having learnt and used both ways, I use the simpler approach all the time now with confidence. Here in Australia we certainly don't have the number of built-up areas that you guys do over there, however the technique works what every options your luck ends up giving you.

Main thing, learn how to fly your plane slow, to best L/D and also know how it flies, 'drops' once you get below this.

Cheers, Greg

I absolutely agree with this approach which is what we use and practice. The high key approach is too sterilized and perhaps unrealistic in the real world when an engine can fail at any time. Certainly in my real engine out situation a few years back setting up a conventional approach was not realistic and I too think there is far more room for miscalculation.

With a direct head to approach, it is easy to see if you'll make the field as you can tell if the field is slipping up or down in the windshield. Getting rid of altitude is easy, getting it back is impossible. We can come down at 2500 fpm with full flaps and lots of sideslip if need be. We use slips to modulate altitude until making the field is certain, then use flaps if we need to lose more or check speed.

[glenn654]

For those of us not familiar with the military terminology, please explain the "High Key" , "Low Key" stuff....

Glenn Wilkinson