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04-05-2011, 02:40 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lake Havasu City AZ
Posts: 2,393
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turn back
Forgot to mention that Lauren Paines testing was in the RV8
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04-05-2011, 02:43 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Huntersville, NC
Posts: 138
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You could always climb to 800 ft or so straight out then chop the power. That'll give you an idea of what it takes to get it turned around. I think what's so difficult is you are going from climb, to decent. The pitch attitude that needs to happen quickly is huge! I'm guessing, but maybe from +5 degrees, to -5 degrees. It'd be very easy to lower the nose, but just not enough.
Steve
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04-05-2011, 03:14 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: pittsburgh pa
Posts: 533
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first off
What an intense experience for you Trib. Here's to much strength in dealing with it, as deal with it you must.
When thinking about turnback, I always recollect my experiences with 60 degree AOB accellerated stalls during Phase 1 - My thought was "man you can really crank this thing around quickly at low speed in short distance without stalling!!!!" while I struggled to keep the nose up and enough G on to get it to stall - then you realize the huge descent rate generated during the manuever to maintain any airspeed and you realize that it wouldn't be possible at low altitude.
Only lot's of fore thought and practice (at altitude) could standardize the turnback manuever enough to reduce the risk.
This type of standardization (by aircraft type) is what will be necessary to make a dent in the accident rate as discussed in Van's recent article.
Generating this type of standardized data, and then training to it is the best contribution us living guys could make to attacking the sorry AB accident rate data.
Kinda takes some of the fun out of just blasting around in your air scooter, but at some point, it will probably have to happen if we have a hope at maintaining this wonderful freedom.
PS: funny that we never ever even thought about teaching the turn back in military primary training, where we did have the assets to standardize it if we had wanted to - we taught dump the nose for airspeed and find your best alternative IN FRONT OF THE WINGS NOW!!
__________________
Gary Reed
RV-6 IO-360
WW 200 RV now an Al Hartzell for improved CG
Last edited by gereed75 : 04-05-2011 at 03:27 PM.
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04-05-2011, 03:42 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 144
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Sounds like the Lancair pilot was no rookie either... very sad
http://hamptonroads.com/2011/04/army...apeake-airport
__________________
Andrew
Lancaster, PA l RV-7 #3898 l Empennage l N627AB
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things" ~Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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04-05-2011, 03:47 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrs14855
The issue that a lot of people miss or gloss over, is the very agressive push required to get the nose down if the engine quits on takeoff.
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I haven't flown power planes yet, but I had my share of cable breaks (simulated and real ones) during winch launches with a glider. This suddenly puts you in a situation with 40 degrees nose-up attitude, no power, 300 ft altitude, somewhere in the center over an airfield with 1200 ft runway and trees on all four sides. The first thing to do is to push the stick forward to get into a normal flight attitude. It's not uncommon to push hard enough to see all the dirt coming up from the floor of the aircraft. Remember that at zero g the stall speed is zero, too. Now wait until you've established a healthy airspeed. This takes a second or too, which might seem like an eternity. You can use the time to look out of the cockpit (forget about the altimeter!) and decide whether you can land straight ahead, make a 180 and land downwind, make an elongated 360 to land on the runway (or anywhere else on the airfield!), or even pick a field off the airport. As some mentioned before, it is important to think about those options before takeoff -- it's part of my start check. When you are in the air, you only have time to pick one of those options, not to make up a new one.
Reading the AOPA online article I was surprised about a few things. The author recommends to push the nose down and start turning simultaneously, rather than establishing a normal glide attitude and airspeed first and turning then. The second thing is that he turns into the wind. I have learned to turn with the wind (note that I establish airspeed first, then turn), because then my last turn is with the nose into the wind, so that I'm less likely to overshoot my landing spot which might cause me to bank more, pull more and therefore stall or put a wingtip on the ground -- all this in the turn when I'm closest to the ground. With the nose pointing in the wind during the last turn I have (1) more time for the turn (lower ground speed and more distance to the center line) and (2) don't have to turn that much, because the nose is already pointing in the direction of the crab angle rather than the other way.
I'd be interested to hear your opinions on those two points.
__________________
Hendrik
Club-Libelle: flying
RV-8: on hold (new job  , new home  , no workshop (yet)  )
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04-05-2011, 04:36 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 1,505
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All I can say is this fellow was very experienced in several types of aircraft. If he couldn't do a turn back under the stress involved then I most certainly could not at 500 hours. It just reinforces my idea to just try to keep the plane from stalling and hopefully pick a spot ahead that won't kill me and my passengers. I can't imagine losing a son and daughter at the same time like this. Absolutely heart breaking.
__________________
Jim Wright
RV-9A N9JW 90919 SoldArkansas
http://www.jimsairplanes.com
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"It's a brutal struggle for the biscuit."
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04-05-2011, 04:56 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Huntersville, NC
Posts: 138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rv9aviator
All I can say is this fellow was very experienced in several types of aircraft. If he couldn't do a turn back under the stress involved then I most certainly could not at 500 hours. It just reinforces my idea to just try to keep the plane from stalling and hopefully pick a spot ahead that won't kill me and my passengers. I can't imagine losing a son and daughter at the same time like this. Absolutely heart breaking.
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When things like this happen, it's a great time to learn from it. Many pilots do things that are wrong. It happens to everybody. But just to say "hey, this guy had loads of time and he couldn't, means that I have no chance". You can't think like that.
Many people who are very experienced make huge mistakes. Please don't think the way it seems you are. It's like you are giving up.
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04-05-2011, 05:06 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: KRTS
Posts: 1,798
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The impossible turn, succesfully performed by a SERGRAD in a swept wing jet (T-45). SERGRAD is basically a newly winged aviator that stays as an IP. He got an air medal for this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqmYxgZ7Mm8
__________________
Next?, TBD
IAR-823, SOLD
RV-8, SOLD
RV-7, SOLD
Last edited by Sig600 : 04-05-2011 at 05:08 PM.
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04-05-2011, 05:08 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: spokane, wa
Posts: 805
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I guess what a person has to do is evaluate how you deal with emergencies. Do you freak out, some do, do you stay calm, get the picture. When I had a problem with take off I emmediately pushed the stick forward and leveled the plane, than I figured out what I was going to do. I have heard many people start jerking things and freaking out and that is when the wrong thing happens. For me I still had the engine running, not good, but it was running. I went from there. I'm sure if the engine went silent than it would have been a no brainer for me to keep the airplane on course and land it no matter what because as long as the air is moving over the control serfaces you have a better chance at surviving over a drop out and +feet to a stoppage.
I remember from my training where one guy, explained to me, had troubles with the engine out and crawled into the back and rolled up in a ball. That's how they found him, plane hit tail first.
Another example was a guy that lost an engine and flew it to the ground, the wings were broke off and the guy survived without any injuries. So I guess you need to evaluate your means to an emergency more than anything.
Mine is to keep things in perspective and don't freak. level the plane and take a deap breath and deal with what you have and keep a level head.
Last edited by allbee : 04-06-2011 at 08:05 AM.
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04-05-2011, 06:06 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 408
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This story is heartbreaking. Tim, I feel for you and what you had to deal with and the memories you will still have to deal with. Sigh...
Regarding what to do in this situation, I won't judge the pilot. He was judged too harshly in the outcome already.
The best advice I recall ever reading is to fly the plane all the way to the ground. Situations will be different (altitude, airspeed, cross runways, trees, playgrounds, etc), which may or may not make an attempted turnback the right thing to do, but regardless of the decision, you always have to fly the plane to make it work. It is my belief that so long as you have your flight surfaces, you have a chance.
__________________
JV
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
RV7 QB - Airframe largely complete, sans canopy and glass... unfortunately sold
RV6 - O-360-A1A, Hartzell CS, dual G3X VFR... purchased
Dues paid 2015
"Being defeated is only a temporary condition; giving up is what makes it permanent."
-- Marilyn vos Savant
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