VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics


Go Back   VAF Forums > Main > Safety
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-05-2011, 10:01 AM
trib trib is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 474
Default Airport turnback procedure

Sunday afternoon, working on my annual with another EAAer in my hanger at KCPK, we heard an aircraft which had just taken off start backfiring and lose power. Running out of the hanger we saw a Lancair 360 making a steep turn back towards the runway he had just departed at no more than 200' altitude. As we watched in horror, we saw the stall/spin entry we have all been taught from the beginning of our PPL lessons in full view. The right (inside wing) dropped and the plane impacted the ground nearly vertical. We rushed to the aircraft, which was upright with the canopy ejected, and both occupants were unresponsive, still strapped in and blood emanating from their ears. Both appeared to have broken necks. No pulses could be found (a doctor was also in our group of responders) and all that could be done was get extinguishers in case of a fire (did not happen) and let the police and FAA clean up. There were several fields to each side and straight ahead that could have been effective for a crash landing, hopefully with much different results for the occupants, but the pilot succombed to the impulse to turn back to the nice runway he had just left. My plan following witnessing this tragedy, is to edit my pretakeoff checklist to add as a last item something to the effect of "if power loss occurs prior to XXX feet, do not turnback and land straight ahead". My immediate thought when I saw the Lancair begin a turn was that it was way to low to turn, but I feel this would be a good thing to remind myself of prior to each takeoff.

I know I have read before where a number of persons have experimented with the amount of altitude needed, and that for a 6 it was about 400'. I was planning on 500' for a bit of a factor of safety and plan to experiment at altitude to verify and keep myself proficient.

The question I have for those with a lot of piloting experience here is on minimum airspeed during the turnback. I was curious if anyone had actually recorded their parameters, such as bank angle and airspeed in this maneuver when they were testing. Since my pitot is on the left wing, it follows to my logic that a right turn would be most limiting as the airspeed would read higher than the speed on the inside wing. If the airspeed indicated is sufficient for a right turn, then if a left turn was made with the same indicated airspeed, each wing would have a higher actual airspeed than with a right turn, giving additional margin for a left turn.

So the question is what bank angle and airspeed limit to use for an emergency turnback? I'll start there with my experimentation to find the best for my airplane (and then add an appropriate margin).
__________________
Tim Ribble
Virginia Beach
RV-6A (only took 13 years to build )
N621TR In unrestricted operation
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-05-2011, 10:14 AM
Hens07's Avatar
Hens07 Hens07 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 144
Default

Its really interesting that I just read this article last night about this very same topic... lots of good info!

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pi...technique.html
__________________
Andrew
Lancaster, PA l RV-7 #3898 l Empennage l N627AB

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things" ~Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-05-2011, 10:19 AM
Danny7 Danny7 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: central oregon
Posts: 1,089
Default

That is a pretty good article, it is in the aopa pilot magazine also, the one with the yellowstone / yellow aviat cover edit- its the April 2011 issue
__________________
nothing special here...

Last edited by Danny7 : 04-05-2011 at 12:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-05-2011, 10:20 AM
rv7boy's Avatar
rv7boy rv7boy is offline
Forum Peruser
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Austinville, Alabama
Posts: 2,458
Default Schiff and McClellan

First, let me express my sympathy to you and to the families of the people involved. No doubt this made an impact on you. You'll remember this for the rest of your life.

Two recent articles come to mind. One is by Barry Schiff in a recent AOPA Pilot magazine. Sorry I don't have the issue with me but I believe it was published in the last 3 or 4 months. He doesn't say, "Don't turn back." But he does say you had better practice, practice, practice and know the limits as to when and where you MIGHT be able to get back to the runway. I've always liked Schiff's writing. He's very easy to understand, plus he's been there and is willing to talk about his experiences.

The second is by Mac McClellan who now writes a column for EAA. I'm not sure if I got it from being a subscriber to his email blog or from the EAA Sport Pilot magazine. His philosophy is plan ahead, know when to abort the takeoff and either hit the brakes or put it back on the remaining runway, or if sufficiently (?) airborne, know where you're going to aim the airplane. The bottom line is before every takeoff, you should self-brief so you'll know exactly what you're going to do when the engine quits.

I respect both guys for their excellent insight and for their willingness to share their many hours of flying experience with folks like us.

P.S. You may have to be an EAA member to read it online, but in the March 2011 issue of EAA's Sport Aviation magazine, Mac McClellan's last paragraph reads, "Bottom line, the takeoff is the only maneuver in flying that gives us unlimited time to plan in advance. The more we consider what could go wrong, and develop a plan to deal with that emergency, the safer each takeoff will be."

P.P.S. And in the same FAA list of fatal accidents is the four person crew of experienced test personnel working for Grumman who perished after something went bad on the takeoff roll. If you haven't read the McClellan article then you won't understand why I mentioned the Gulfstream accident. The two accidents are related in that they show how the takeoff can go wrong for anyone, either an experienced corporate test pilot or a less experienced general aviation pilot. McClellan's article makes a good point. The takeoff pre-brief, even if it's a "self-brief," is important.
__________________
Don Hull
RV-7 Wings
KDCU Pryor Field
Pilots'n Paws Pilot
N79599/ADS-B In and Out...and I like it!

?Certainly, travel is more than the seeing of sights;
it is a change that goes on, deep and permanent, in the ideas of living." Miriam Beard

Last edited by rv7boy : 04-05-2011 at 12:00 PM. Reason: Added P.S. and added a P.P.S.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-05-2011, 10:29 AM
allbee allbee is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: spokane, wa
Posts: 805
Default

sorry to hear this.

the thing to remember is airspeed is paramount. I've had two incidents with each of my airplanes where the engine lost power on take off(half) but it got my attention. The first thing you do is fly the airplane, watch the airspeed, no matter what you do if you have the airspeed you can do what you need to do. Once you loose the airspeed you level wings and fly it straight wherever and land the plane, period. But still if you have airspeed I myself limit the bank to about 30 but prefer 15. I use the rudder for turning if needed. Main thing is to maintain airspeed, I like 15 above stall, after that it's level wings and forward on the stick to maintain airspeed and land.

Ok now your asking what happened on the two. Well I was able to maintain airspeed and I returned to the runway and landed, took off on 21 and landed on 03.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-05-2011, 10:29 AM
RBD's Avatar
RBD RBD is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 406
Default

Sorry you had to witness that, Tim. As others mentioned above, the recent AOPA article has some really good info regarding the turn back. One thing I picked up from the article that I've never considered is the presence of a crosswind and how it should affect which way you turn should you decide to return to the airport. Another thing I sometimes do is to NOT depart straight out from the runway centerline depending on the emergency landing sites at a given airport/runway. Departing the field at a slight angle to the runway centerline means that you have a little bit less turning (and thus altitude loss) to complete your "180" back to the runway. The AOPA article lays out a good plan to practice the turnback at altitude.
__________________
Ryan
Tampa, FL
RV-4 (sold)
RV-8 (sold)
Xtreme Decathlon (borrowing)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-05-2011, 10:33 AM
bkilby's Avatar
bkilby bkilby is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Newnan, GA
Posts: 317
Default

Pierre that posts a lot on here did lots of these turn backs in his 6 a year or two ago. He could probably chime in and provide some of his experiences.
__________________
Brian Kilby
flying RV-6A, previously flying RV-9A
based at KCTJ, Carrollton, GA
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-05-2011, 10:44 AM
n5lp's Avatar
n5lp n5lp is offline
fugio ergo sum
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Carlsbad, NM
Posts: 1,912
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by allbee View Post
... I use the rudder for turning if needed...
I feel compelled to mention that I think this is an extraordinarily bad idea.
__________________
Larry Pardue
Carlsbad, NM

RV-6 N441LP Flying
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-05-2011, 11:10 AM
pierre smith's Avatar
pierre smith pierre smith is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Louisville, Ga
Posts: 7,840
Default Agree with Larry...

...that's the input that leads to a snap roll! Do as coordinated of a turn as you can..just about always.

I am so sorry to read about this accident and even more inclined to not comment on my turnback experiences. Yes, I did them several years ago, in my 180 hp -6A to find out if it was possible and I did it lower and lower until I found the absolute minimum that I could handle.

If you're even inclined to consider this maneuver as a possibility, please go and practise it at altitude....a lot! Find the minimum altitude that suits your emotions and abilities, because I won't recommend any altitude for you, since this is a WWW. arena!

Regards,
__________________
Pierre Smith
RV-10, 510 TT
RV6A (Sojourner) 180 HP, Catto 3 Bl (502Hrs), gone...and already missed
Air Tractor AT 502B PT 6-15 Sold
Air Tractor 402 PT-6-20 Sold
EAA Flight Advisor/CFI/Tech Counselor
Louisville, Ga

It's never skill or craftsmanship that completes airplanes, it's the will to do so,
Patrick Kenny, EAA 275132


Dues gladly paid!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-05-2011, 11:11 AM
SteinAir SteinAir is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 2,473
Default

Lucky for me I already have some popcord pre-made (thanks Darwin) so I can sit back and watch this unfold!

What I can say to Tim is that I understand completely having been in your position not to terribly long ago. If it hasn't hit you emotionally yet it will, and it will hit like a bag of bricks. I wish I had something creative or inspiring to say, but I don't. It's a disgusting and physically sickening thing to witness.

No 2 cents from me this time....I think I particpated in one of the past horse beatings.

Cheers,
Stein

PS, Given what Pierre does for a living - his experience with Turnbacks is not what I'd consider as the average typical pilot or experience level (I mean that as a compliment)!

Last edited by SteinAir : 04-05-2011 at 11:14 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:54 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.