|
-
POSTING RULES

-
Donate yearly (please).
-
Advertise in here!
-
Today's Posts
|
Insert Pics
|

03-03-2011, 07:23 PM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,652
|
|
Hypothetical Question for CFI's...
A pilot and an instructor knock out a BFR six months ago. Today, the instructor informs the pilot that at the time of the BFR six months ago, the INSTRUCTOR'S BFR had lapsed, which seemingly renders the pilot's BFR null and void. Assuming this is an honest oversight on the part of the instructor, and aside from the pilot needing a BFR, pronto, what is the appropriate course of action for the pilot concerning all the hours logged in the last six months?
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.
Michael Robinson
______________
Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
Last edited by Toobuilder : 03-03-2011 at 07:43 PM.
|

03-03-2011, 09:36 PM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Navarre, FL
Posts: 168
|
|
Lapsed BFR
It would seem to me that the CFI owes the pilot a valid BFR.
__________________
Neal George
Navarre, FL
CherokeeJet N9586J
RV-7 N8ZG (all the loose ends)
Continental Aerospace Technologies, Product Support
|

03-03-2011, 09:57 PM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Stockton, CA
Posts: 1,207
|
|
Maybe.........
IF the pilot's BFR had not actually expired, there is no requirement for the CFI's BFR to be current for him to give a BFR. The pilot is the PIC during a BFR flight. If the pilot's BFR had expired, then the BFR is invalid, as there was no PIC. In fact, the whole flight would have been illegal (in this HYPOTHETICAL situation).
|

03-03-2011, 10:07 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sonoma County
Posts: 3,821
|
|
And to add to that, the CFI doesn't even needs a current medical if the pilot's medical is current.
|

03-03-2011, 11:29 PM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,652
|
|
OK, "hypothetically", the pilot is in the clear: Just for discussions sake, we'll assume the pilot was still current (BFR not expired), and the instructor's cert was valid.
"Hypothetically", the pilot is relieved.
Thanks
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.
Michael Robinson
______________
Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
|

03-03-2011, 11:57 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 22
|
|
Flight Review in Question
Good Evening Toolbuilder,
This is an interesting hypothetical, and you will find the responses are a strong function of the personalities of the responders!
As far as I can determine, this situation is not explicitly addressed in the regulations - I have briefly reviewed what would seem to be the applicable regulations:
Part 61 definition of an Authorized Instructor
61.56 Flight Review
61.193 Flight Instructor Privileges
61.195 Flight Instructor Limitation
I'm not going to print these out here, but I'm sure someone in the ensuing thread will post the entire contents!
Odd as it may seem, none of these regulations explicitly prohibit an instructor from conducting a Flight Review (which does involve Flight Instruction), without having a current Flight Review themselves.
Without a current Flight Review, the instructor could not ACT as PIC. So unless the pilot was legal to act as PIC (rated, not-yet-expired Flight Review, and medical) and did act as PIC, then the entire flight was not legal, and that would certainly seem to taint the Flight Review.
However, if the pilot was legally ACTING PIC during the flight, then nothing in the above regulations seems to prohibit the validity of the Flight Review. It is very possible that this seeming loophole is NOT an oversight by the FAA, and here is why:
If the Flight Instructor's certificate is valid (and that is not dependent on their Flight Review or Medical status), then the instructor must have demonstrated 'proficiency' to the satisfaction of the FAA during the proceeding 24 months, including the review of the part 61 and part 91 regulations that make up the bulk of the review. There are a number of ways for flight instructors to satisfy the FAA in this regard, and I won't detail them here; the point is simply that an unexpired flight instructor certificate is defacto evidence that the instructor has some FAA oversight/evaluation within the preceding 24 months and found to be satisfactory - Hey, that's a bit like a Flight Review.
While an Instructor Certificate renewal is not a substitute for a Flight Review, an Instructor certificate renewal CAN serve in lieu of the Ground Instruction portion of the Flight Review (the Flight Review requires a minimum of one hour Ground Instruction and one hour Flight Instruction).
So it is very possible that an enlightened FAA does not intend to impose a current Flight Review requirement for instructors giving Flight Reviews where they are not acting as PIC, because the instructor has the required currency of knowledge to give the review, and the PIC pilot has the requisites to ensure the legality and safety of flight.
If the Flight Review included hooded instrument work, then the instructor becomes a required crewmember and must hold a current medical, but I still don't see an explicit requirement for the instructor to have a current Flight Review, as he is not necessarily ACTING as PIC.
But let's suppose the pilot was not legal PIC at the time of the review, or does not buy the arguments above - what are the options?
It is easy enough to get another Flight Review before further acting as PIC. If the pilot is concerned enough to get a another review, he should probably ask the instructor to show evidence of a current Flight Review!
Now lets discuss the pilot's logs:
All that is required to LOG PIC is to be the sole manipulator of the controls for an aircraft for which one is rated. No medical or current flight review required. So if the pilot had a good buddy who agreed to ACT as PIC (be responsible for the flight) while our non-current pilot manipulated the controls, then the logging of such time is not evidence of anything improper.
However, more likely is that much of the pilot's LOGGED PIC is when he was ACTING as PIC. The implied question is whether the pilot should destroy this evidence or at least not count it toward piloting experience.
To the first part of the question, I don't know why anyone who was only the victim (not even the perpetrator) of an honest mistake would feel a need to cover up that fact with dishonesty.
The second part of the question would be related to how parties interested in the pilots flight experience would react to the situation. Those parties might include:
The FAA (because experience is required for some ratings/privileges)
Insurance Companies (to help them rate risk)
Employers (who may evaluate based on flight experience)
Depending on the pilot's concern about these parties discovering and acting on the circumstances, the pilot could simply not include these flights when reporting experience. I doubt any insurance company would deny coverage in these circumstances (I seriously doubt they would ask to see the logbook of the instructor who gave you the flight review, and I don't see how the pilot's contract with the insurance company could compel a third party such as the flight instructor to provide such records). However, there are ALWAYS those who say the pilot's insurance won't pay, and this thread will include such folks.
The FAA regulations require Flight Instructors to keep a record of all flight instruction for at least 3 years. I am not aware of any other FAA recordkeeping with regard to Flight Reviews.
Perhaps the information above will be useful to our hypothetical pilot as he/she ponders what would actions would be appropriate.
Regards,
Blake Harral
RV-4 N72RV
|

03-04-2011, 08:24 AM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Mojave
Posts: 4,652
|
|
Thanks for the resonse everyone. Blake, you touched on something that brings up another question: IF the pilot and instructor BOTH had lapsed BFRs thereby making the flight "illegal" (no "qualified" pilot on board), would the feds view the BFR itself as invalid? It seems to reason that if the instructor is still qualified to instruct without a current BFR, the pilot is still qualified to be evaluated without a BFR. Within that line of reasoning, it would seem that the PIC TIME logged during the BFR wouldn't count, but the pilot became legal again as soon as the ink dried in the logbook entry, so all subsequent time was in the clear. Does that make sense?
__________________
WARNING! Incorrect design and/or fabrication of aircraft and/or components may result in injury or death. Information presented in this post is based on my own experience - Reader has sole responsibility for determining accuracy or suitability for use.
Michael Robinson
______________
Harmon Rocket II -SDS EFI
RV-8 - SDS CPI
1940 Taylorcraft BL-65
1984 L39C
|

03-04-2011, 09:00 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Jacksonville, Florida
Posts: 10
|
|
No one seems to have mentioned this, but would it be appropriate to file a NASA safety form in this case? That might provide your "friend" with an additional layer of protection in the event this comes to light of the authorities.
|

03-04-2011, 10:01 AM
|
 |
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 12,887
|
|
This brings up an interesting point.
How many of us have actually asked an instructor, A&P, IA, etc. to see their license (medical and log book entry in the case of the CFI)? Almost 100% of us take pilots and mechanics at their word.
Yet, I know of a few people who were duped into letting a bogus IA sign off their Annual Inspections (certified aircraft). This caused them some issues which were eventually sorted out. (Did you know a mechanic must have his license when working on aircraft? I certainly did not.)
Knowing this, I asked the instructor who gave me my last BFR to show me his credentials. He took no offence to the request and was impressed I thought to ask.
__________________
Bill R.
RV-9 (Yes, it's a dragon tail)
O-360 w/ dual P-mags
Build the plane you want, not the plane others want you to build!
SC86 - Easley, SC
www.repucci.com/bill/baf.html
|

03-04-2011, 11:06 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Shorewood, Il.
Posts: 230
|
|
Back in my full time flight instruction days I was unable to get a medical due to the Dr's schedule. Just to cover my bases I inquired with the local FSDO that I was truley "legal" to give flight instruction whithout it. They verified that if the student was a rated pilot and legal PIC that it was ok. With a real "student" (still working on a private) no go. One would assume the same thought process would apply to a BFR. One should also expect different interpretations from different FSDO's, so your mileage may vary.
The NASA form is technically only good if filed within 10 days (going off memory for timeframe) of the event. Technically not valid if filed 6 months afterward. I don't believe it mentions 10 days from when you became aware of it.
One would hope the instructor is sufficiently apologetic, and embarassed.  Next one on the house?
Also, never thought about it in the instruction realm, but when flying corporate with different people I would introduce myself and automatically provide my documents as to being qualified to fly the aircraft . Once that was done they were usually happy to reciprocate. It eliminated the uncomfortable "can I see your stuff?" (one of our pilots got bitten, pax on, in flight new pilot says "its great to be back in a lear! I havent flown one in 2 years!) I have also been requiring flight review people (prety much all the instruction I do anymore) to show me their new plastic licenses. No new one, no go for a flight review. Joy ride? Sure, I'm PIC. I have only caught one so far.
Mark
|
| Thread Tools |
Search this Thread |
|
|
|
| Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:27 AM.
|