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  #21  
Old 03-02-2011, 12:00 PM
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Cadstat Cadstat is offline
 
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Location: Greeley, Colorado
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Default Sky High

My cost just to have the potential to fly the RV is $360 a month. That's just hanger, insurance, BFR, Medical. I used to share a 210 with two other pilots. With 2-6k annuals out of pocket still almost the same.
I learned in a 150 rental for 6/hr wet, IFR 172 for 12/hr wet.
A bird's gotta fly....
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John D. Artz, EAA 71811, 100+ Young Eagle flts
Adopted Dave's 6A
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  #22  
Old 03-02-2011, 12:02 PM
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strahler13 strahler13 is offline
 
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I don't like the answer I get when I put flying costs down on paper...can we then just keep this a lawyer bashing thread?

Mark
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RV-6 (Purchased flying)
KFFC-Peachtree City, GA
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  #23  
Old 03-02-2011, 12:17 PM
David Paule David Paule is offline
 
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Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 4,435
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Seems to me that as some folks have indicated, that there's three sets of costs here.

The big one is getting or building the plane. You pay this once and it's a capital cost with some sweat, time and blood mixed in.

The next one is the cost for the hangar or tiedown, the insurance and the condition inspection, your medical and biannual, too. This is basically the annual cost to have the capability of flying. You gotta pay this before you even start the motor.

The marginal cost for fuel and oil is pretty low compared to these. I bet that if you can provide yourself with the airplane, ready and legal to fly, you can really afford the marginal cost of operating it.

Dave
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  #24  
Old 03-02-2011, 12:48 PM
Bavafa Bavafa is offline
 
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Location: Sacramento, CA
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Prevost View Post
the next big commitment for me was climbing. I spent over 10 years working part time and climbing rocks, mountains, and ice all over the world. I lived climbing as much or more as I lived airplanes earlier. Eventually I squeezed an engineering degree and with my resulting income delta was able to build an RV and return to aviation. There was a catch though--I had to quit climbing to make time for the RV. I tried climbing casually after the plane was done, but climbing is a lot like flying. If you don't do it a lot proficiency (and strength) drop to the point it's not worth the effort. I hate doing things half way.
Guy
Sounds like my life story so I can relate to completely. Though I still when I go to bed and start day dreaming just to fall asleep, in my dreams I am still ice climbing and scaling high peaks. But then I wake up to reality just to find out my best way to get that high (both emotionally and actual) is to fly.
As for budget goes, my wife understands my passion for this and has been overly generous with the our budget so I have got 150+ hours per year since we finished the 7 but we will adjust as life changes.
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N825SM RV7A - IO360M1B - SOLD
N825MS RV14A - IO390 - Flying
Dues paid
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  #25  
Old 03-02-2011, 01:03 PM
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RVbySDI RVbySDI is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Tuttle, Oklahoma
Posts: 2,563
Default percantage of other costs

Chad,
I read through all of the other posts hoping someone would comment on my thoughts. The closest to my thoughts were from Paul when he talks about his initial 1.75/gal costs going up to 3.00/gal and he was still flying. As Paul mentioned, as long as we can pay our bills we will continue to spend money on flying.

Why are we still flying when fuel price goes up by a nickel/gal, fifty cents/gal, a dollar/gal, doubles, triples, quadruples in price? Because when we pay those additional prices we are paying from one overall pot of money. So just looking at the end price of $X.xx as a finite point when we say "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH", will be a subjective figure that even within our own thought processes we will change. The reason for this is that we are not using that $X.xx figure in a comparison analysis. That is the only true way any of us will be able to adequately answer your question.

How are we going to do that? Well, we have to compare that $X.xx/gal to the overall lump sum of money we think we have to pull that money from. This is going to be a percentage of the "Overall Cost to Live" we have set for ourselves. This Overall Cost to Live will be the total dollar amount of our net income, savings, etc. that supplies the money to support our existance. So if we think of the $X.xx/gal it cost for fuel for our hobby, we need to analyze the percentage of the fuel expense in comparison to the overall dollar amount we have to spend. Divide the $X.xx/gal * the total amount of fuel purchased for fuel spent (F) by the total amount of money we have available to us to spend (M) and multiply by 100 to get a percentage of overall money available to spend (%I).

Thus a formula for an annual fuel expense might look like this:
(F/M)*100 = %I

So an example: if I spend 5.00/gal and I use 500 gallons in a year (5.00 * 500 = $2500) and then I compare that figure to the overall available money, say $50,000 (net income + savings + etc.) we can look at a percentage of the overall amount of money I have.

($2500/$50000)*100 = 5%

I am spending 5% of my total amount of available money in a year for fuel for the airplane.

This is the number we need to analyze. What percentage of the overall money available to me am I willing to spend before I say "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH"? Is it 5%, 10%, 25%, 50% of my overall amount of money available?

Of course, we cannot do this analysis in a vacuum. The truth is, all of the other things we spend money on have to be analyzed in this manner too. Once we do that though, we can start doing an analysis that will allow us to PRIORITIZE our expenses. That is to say:
Quote:
Based on a Prioritized List I creat that shows me the Percentage of money I am spending on Fuel for the airplane, fuel for the car, food on the table, house payment, kids education, etc., etc., etc. I can now figure out at what point do I have to look at stopping spending money on fuel for the airplane, or flying all together.
Well I hope you get the picture. Once we can determine what percentage of the overall costs of our house hold expense is going to this hobby, we will then be able to answer for ourselves the question you pose.

It does take more than just looking at hard and fast DOLLAR amounts for us to make that determination.

Well, I most certainly did not intend to reply with such a long post. This is the manner in which I analyze whether I am going to spend money on flying or not. I hope it makes sense and that I have explained my thoughts well enough to be understood.

Live Long and Prosper.
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Steve
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Last edited by RVbySDI : 03-02-2011 at 01:39 PM.
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  #26  
Old 03-02-2011, 01:07 PM
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rv7boy rv7boy is offline
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Location: Austinville, Alabama
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Default twop???

twop? whazzat? A Google search says "Television without Pity." That must not be right, because that has nothing to do with this thread.

"ttid" seems more appropriate to me. (This thread is depressing.)

I'm out.

Don
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it is a change that goes on, deep and permanent, in the ideas of living." Miriam Beard
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  #27  
Old 03-02-2011, 01:27 PM
rv7charlie rv7charlie is offline
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pocahontas MS
Posts: 3,884
Default

I'm way too lazy for a long dissertation, but here's a short one on the issue of tort (not that I'm a big fan of it...):
That ain't what makes airplanes (or medical care, or anything else) so expensive.

Supporting argument: Follow the money. A quarter million in liability ins costs $300-$400. $50K in hull costs 3 to 4 times that much. I'm betting that insurance companies know where the risks are.

The real reason that <insert product here> costs so much is because the vendor can charge that much to the guy who feels he must have it. How can a hospital charge you $6 for a Tylenol? Answer: because for all practical purposes, you don't have a choice. Any discussion of why would get this post deleted, so I'll stop here.

I do feel the pain on the cost/benefit analysis. I'm fortunate to have stumbled into a situation where my house note, hangar rent, and ins all rolled up together are less that what most pay in hangar rent, & I still struggle with justifying the cost per hour of fun.

Charlie
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  #28  
Old 03-02-2011, 01:30 PM
Daver Daver is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 297
Default Justification

I don't think you can honestly justify building & flying an airplane anymore than you can golfing, hunting (the most expensive meat there is), hotrodding, fancy cars, etc.

Its a hobby! Just for fun, you know.

I don't golf, hunt, drink beer, go to the movies, drive expensive cars or anything else so my flying is not all that bad.

I just got my -9A out of phase I. Used an average of 5 gph for 46 hours.

I used a 50-50 mix of 100ll and mogas for an average cost of ~$4/gal.

$20/hr for fuel and, a yet unknown, amount of money per hour to cover hanger, insurance, maintenance, etc.

My partner is a CFI that can do my BFRs and I do the oil changes, etc.

The hanger is $200/month and insurance is about $127/month.

We can ween the plane off 100ll for some savings. I was thinking about $45/hr probably would cover most of it (15 hr/month =$675) split two ways.

I have a cardboard sign: "will work for aviation fuel" and a freeway offramp picked out but I don't think I'll need it

At this point, I can afford to fly this thing some.

Dave
-9A out of ph 1
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  #29  
Old 03-02-2011, 01:50 PM
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cjensen cjensen is offline
 
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Location: Milwaukee, WI area
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonJay View Post
But if all I could afford was to have my old Aeronca back, I would make the sacrifice and give up the performance to at least be up in the air.
This is how I feel after talking with my wife about all this last night. No matter what happens with the RV (it's NOT for sale, and we don't have a plan to sell at this point), I will make a way to fly...be it in an Aeronca, Cub, Citabria, whatever. And I am gonna build another...see my sig.

Good discussion now! It's just interesting food for thought from time to time, especially when future financial goals come in to the picture. Hehe...and I don't subscribe to the "can't take it with you" theory...I'd like to have something to pass along. Maybe it's my RV that I keep forever and pass down!
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  #30  
Old 03-02-2011, 02:02 PM
ukncessnadrvr ukncessnadrvr is offline
 
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Location: Duncanville, TX
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Like many, I obsess over the cost of fuel, even though it certainly isn't the only expense, or maybe even the highest expense, but it certainly impacts the hourly flying cost the most. And the point of all of this effort we expend is to fly.

I'm hoping the following isn't just smoke and mirrors and false hopes - it would change everything...

http://www.jouleunlimited.com/
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