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  #11  
Old 02-09-2011, 08:40 PM
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N941WR N941WR is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Harvey L. Sorensen View Post
Would'nt it be easer to convert our aircraft to burn ethanal? How hard could it be. I know of at least four RVs in SD burning straight ethanal. If they will handle 10% maybe with a little larger main jet 15% would be fine. Just wondering.
Let's see.

100% ethanal = less power
Less power = reduced range
Less power = Less ROC
Less ROC = Less GW

I could go on, but you get the idea.

The four RV-3's are for a very specific use and seem to be a great sales tool for the corn growers.
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  #12  
Old 02-10-2011, 03:37 AM
RV10Man RV10Man is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N941WR View Post
Let's see.

100% ethanal = less power
Less power = reduced range
Less power = Less ROC
Less ROC = Less GW

I could go on, but you get the idea.

The four RV-3's are for a very specific use and seem to be a great sales tool for the corn growers.

Didn't one of these airplanes crash recently, due to engine probs?
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  #13  
Old 02-10-2011, 05:34 AM
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Geico266 Geico266 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by N941WR View Post
I wonder if this will really happen. It was announced this week that corn stocks are at an all-time low. One of the reasons they mention is the use of corn in ethanol production.

That is also one of the reasons given for the rise in food prices worldwide. With luck, our politico's will figure this out and stop forcing it upon us.

Besides, corn should be drunk, not burned.
This is a common misconception about ethanol production. First, and foremost corn is a renewable product, we will make more. If we are short on production may I suggest using the 14 million set aside acres we currently pay land owners to grow nothing with your tax dollars.

The feed corn that is used in producing ethanol is minimal. All you are using is the sugar in the corn, not the feed protein. If you use 100 bushels of corn in an ethanol plant you get back 95 bushels of animal feed protein for cattle, hogs, ect. Since the corn used is feed corn anyway there is very little waste. If we need more corn see the above paragraph.

World wide demand for corn has used up excess supply, and that is a good thing,( see paragraph #1) We can grow more. Ethanol is not the "buggee man" made out by the press to confuse the city folks. It is a good thing to reduce oil consumption. Maybe we should look at drilling more oil wells?

I agree with the drinking part!
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Last edited by Geico266 : 02-10-2011 at 05:56 AM.
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  #14  
Old 02-10-2011, 05:39 AM
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My understanding from the Rotax 912 seminar I attended at Oshkosh is that the problem with the ethanol isn't typically with the Rotax engine itself but more to do with plastic fuel lines and such. That may have been a simplified statement given the nature of the forum, but if it is true I would think that the RV-12 would be capable of handling it since the entire fuel system is aluminum.

They either didn't state if there was a maximum percentage or I just forgot it if they did, though.
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  #15  
Old 02-10-2011, 07:35 AM
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N941WR N941WR is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Geico266 View Post
This is a common misconception about ethanol production. ...
I agree with the drinking part!
Here is the story I read about corn stocks being at a 13 year low.
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  #16  
Old 02-10-2011, 07:51 AM
lucien lucien is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geico266 View Post
This is a common misconception about ethanol production. First, and foremost corn is a renewable product, we will make more. .... We can grow more. Ethanol is not the "buggee man" made out by the press to confuse the city folks. It is a good thing to reduce oil consumption.
This is incorrect, unfortunately. The energy budget of corn ethanol production is a net deficit (unless the laws of physics have been changed recently). It takes a lot of petroleum to produce ethanol from corn, in fact it uses more petroleum than simply burning it as gasoline in our engines. Putting it another way, you can't produce ethanol using only the ethanol you've previously produced and come out ahead.

In short, ethanol is not a renewable fuel, because it's not self-sustainable. Converting petroleum into ethanol for fuel will _increase_ our dependence on oil, not decrease it.

Ok, that out of the way, as for the 15%, I'm certain of 2 things:
- we're screwed and it will happen (there's nothing going on to stop it)
- I'll be burning it in my 912.

I doubt 15% will be significantly more problematic than the current 10% as far as the engine goes. In a lot of places ethanol concentrations are ever higher and the Rotax is being operated without problems in those areas.

I think we'll just have to continue to take the same precautions with our fuel systems as we do now with 10%.

Finally, 100LL is still a significantly worse alternative due to the lead. The lead eventually cokes the engine up even with the increased maintenance schedule and different operating practices. So it'll be more cost effective in the end to just run the 15% once it appears.

PS: have to post my own correction to my own statement above - the energy budget of corn eth. is technically positive, so my statement there is actually wrong. But the overall budget is actually extremely marginal, enough that energy independence from corn eth. production is a practical impossibility (not to mention environmental effects from its production which are also very somber).

For example:
http://zfacts.com/p/60.html

and other corroborating data.

So we're still screwed and we shouldn't get our hopes up, sorry

LS

Last edited by lucien : 02-10-2011 at 08:16 AM.
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  #17  
Old 02-10-2011, 09:33 AM
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Geico266 Geico266 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N941WR View Post
Here is the story I read about corn stocks being at a 13 year low.
Corn hit $7 a bushel today. I agree the supply is low, but all we need to do is grow more corn. Most of the land we have in CRP set aside acres (where the US tax payer pays land owners to grow nothing) could be planted this spring.

In Nebraska, billionair Ted Turner recieves millions of your tax dollars for his set aside CRP land where he illegally grazes his commercial buffalo operation. Should you have to pay for Ted Turner to feed his buffalo? He did not even send you a thank you card.

JMHO.
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Last edited by Geico266 : 02-10-2011 at 09:37 AM.
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  #18  
Old 02-10-2011, 12:36 PM
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pierre smith pierre smith is offline
 
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Default Why can't we use water to extract the alcohol?

As I mentioned earlier, a friend of mine buys a drum of ethanol-laced mogas after he puts 4 gallons of water in it. By the time he drives it home and it has sloshed around, the water acts like an ethanol magnet and "sucks" the ethanol out. He then drains the 8 gallons of water/ethanol mix and has, essentially, mogas and no alcohol.

Best,
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  #19  
Old 02-10-2011, 01:15 PM
Danny7 Danny7 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geico266 View Post
Most of the land we have in CRP set aside acres (where the US tax payer pays land owners to grow nothing) could be planted this spring.
Nice sound bite "using your taxes to pay farmers to do nothing..." but not true. CRP land is planted to vegetation that preserves topsoil and tries to hold water, and provide feed or cover for wildlife. you can't have a BARE field that was in corn last year be CRP this year. contracts are either 10 or 15 years, but people are variously stairstepped in the program so every year some farm land entered into crp or removed.
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  #20  
Old 02-10-2011, 01:19 PM
Danny7 Danny7 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pierre smith View Post
As I mentioned earlier, a friend of mine buys a drum of ethanol-laced mogas after he puts 4 gallons of water in it. By the time he drives it home and it has sloshed around, the water acts like an ethanol magnet and "sucks" the ethanol out. He then drains the 8 gallons of water/ethanol mix and has, essentially, mogas and no alcohol.

Best,
ethanol increases the AKI, so for ethanol fuel the people that make the fuel use a lower base stock gasoline counting on the ethanol to raise the AKI to an acceptable level.



For 87 AKI regular gasoline, the refinery can make 84 AKI blending product, usually referred to as 84 cBOB (conventional Blendstock for Oxygenated Blending).

doesn't sound like a good idea to use sub octane fuel in an engine
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Last edited by Danny7 : 02-10-2011 at 01:23 PM.
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