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  #1  
Old 02-02-2011, 08:16 AM
Bob Axsom Bob Axsom is offline
 
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Default How Fast are RVs Compared to Others

I have taken the top speed of each class from the first four years of SARL cross country air racing, put them in an Excel file, sorted them by speed and copied below.

Bob Axsom



Race Date Class Aircraft Type Pilot Speed Kts Speed MPH
AirVenture Cup 2010 7/26/10 Turbine Legend Abbott, Marty 348.54 401.09
AirVenture Cup 2008 7/27/08 Unlimited Lancair IV Tackabury, Paul 302.84 348.51
AirVenture Cup 2008 7/27/08 Sport Lancair Legacy Behel, Lee 291.02 334.90
Grace Flight 2008 10/5/08 Twin 1-T Merlin III Goforth, Philip 285.96 329.08
AirVenture Cup 2008 7/27/08 RG-T Blue Polen Special II Keyt, Dick 272.22 313.26
AirVenture Cup 2008 7/27/08 Sport FX Questair Venture Crawford, Tony 256.27 294.91
AirVenture Cup 2008 7/27/08 FX Blue Glasair I TD Hammer, Bruce 230.37 265.11
Texoma 100, 2008 4/20/08 RG Blue Lancair 360 Henney, Larry 229.36 263.99
AirVenture Cup 2008 7/27/08 Sprint Vari-EZE Savier, Klaus 224.64 258.51
AirVenture Cup 2008 7/27/08 RV Blue RV-8 Huft, John 217.17 249.91
AirVenture Cup 2010 7/26/10 RV Gold RV-4 Anders, Dave 209.06 240.58
AirVenture Cup 2010 7/26/10 RG Red Lancair 320 Schulze, Craig 199.6 229.69
Pagosa Springs 2010 9/26/10 FX Red Wittman Tailwind W-10 Hamilton, Red 198.47 228.24
Pagosa Springs 100 2009 9/27/09 FAC2RG-T Mooney M20M Peck, Jack 192.95 221.9
Pagosa Springs 100 2009 9/27/09 Twin 2 Baron B-55 Crafton, John 191.91 220.69
Texoma 100 4/25/10 FAC1RG Bonanza V35 Burgdorf, Dale 190.88 219.52
West Texas 100 2009 4/12/09 Twin 1 Aerostar Hardage, Tim 188.48 216.9
Texoma 100, 2008 4/20/08 FAC1RG-T Mooney Acclaim Rydzewski, Patrick 187.27 215.55
AirVenture Cup 2008 7/27/08 RV Red RV-4 Murphy, Chris 186.01 214.06
Sulphur Springs 130 7/18/10 FAC1FX-T Columbia 400 Lay, Rob 184.49 212.3
AirCap 200 8/24/08 FAC1FX Cessna 350 Bergqvist, Pia 181.77 209.17
Texoma 100, 2008 4/20/08 FAC2RG Bonanza N35 Huff, Jim 180.29 207.51
Texoma 100 2009 5/31/09 FAC5 Grumman AA1A Plazack, Gene 165.55 190.51
Sulphur Springs 130 7/18/10 FAC3FX Cirrus SR20 Porter, James 160.54 184.74
Texoma 100 2009 5/31/09 FAC3RG Mooney M20J Mutlu, Ali 159.32 183.34
AirVenture Cup 2010 7/26/10 Sportsman Sonerai I Lange, Jeff 159.07 183.06
Grace Flight 2008 10/5/08 FAC4FX Grumman AA5B Morse, Stu 157.85 181.65
Grace Flight 2008 10/5/08 FAC4RG Mooney M20C Punzi, Henry 157.57 181.33
Great NW Air Race 6/13/10 Biplane Blue Pitts S1S Bach, Scott 154.16 177.41
Grace Flight 2010 10/2/10 FAC3RG-T Mooney 231 Pohly, Mark 150.38 173.04
Texoma 100 4/25/10 FAC6 Diamond DA-20 Massimo/Edmon 128.82 148.14

Last edited by Bob Axsom : 02-02-2011 at 08:22 AM. Reason: Bolded aircraft type/model
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  #2  
Old 02-02-2011, 08:18 PM
Alan Carroll's Avatar
Alan Carroll Alan Carroll is offline
 
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Default Average race speeds

Here's another way to slice the onion; I took Bob's spreadsheet and worked out average race speeds for all aircraft types that had at least 5 races. The idea is to reduce the effects of differing wind conditions on the results. It should be noted however that there is a lot of variance being averaged here. I wouldn't take the numbers too literally but they make for some interesting comparisons.

Some general observations:

1. There seems to be no real difference in average speeds between the nosewheel vs. tailwheel side-by-side airplanes.

2. The RV-8 seems to be ~10 mph faster than the side-by-sides. Some of the RV-8s were running with 200 hp, but actually the fastest in this category had 180 hp. There seem to be more 180 hp than 200 hp entries.

3. The RV-8 Gold category seems to be 10-15 mph faster still. This includes the IO-390's plus John Huft (who according to his website has 223 hp, and has done a lot of airframe work).

4. Not surprisingly the 6-cylinder RVs/Rockets are faster than the 4-cylinder RVs.

5. The only factory ships that kept up with the RVs were the Bonanzas.




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Last edited by Alan Carroll : 02-02-2011 at 08:24 PM.
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  #3  
Old 02-02-2011, 08:37 PM
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JordanGrant JordanGrant is offline
 
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Location: Virginia
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Default Jollies per dollar?

I wonder how that chart looks if you divide the speed by the estimated purchase price? Or, better yet, estimated hourly cost (amortizing acquisition/build cost over 2000 hours). Then you'd have an interesting "jollies per dollar" metric.
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  #4  
Old 02-02-2011, 10:07 PM
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rvmills rvmills is offline
 
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Location: Reno, NV
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Default

Hey Alan,

Nice work with the data...makes for a good comparison table.

I haven't gone into the spreadsheets to play with Bob's data yet, but I'm wondering if the F1s can be broken out from the HRIIs (I'm assuming that they are currently lumped together). My guess is that if you broke out F1 EVOs, F1 Sport Wings and HRIIs, they would fall in that order...and my S-6 would fall in just behind the F1 Sport Wings. I'd like to see more HRIIs come out to race, to see if that theory holds water...heck, more S-6s and S-8s would be fun to have in the mix too!!

Great data on RVs of all types...heck, lets see more of all RVs out there!!

Thanks to Bob for the data, and to you for the presentation!

Cheers,
Bob
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  #5  
Old 02-03-2011, 04:27 AM
Bob Axsom Bob Axsom is offline
 
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Default That is a fine piece of work Alan

It is really good to see you take this raw collected data to a higher level. That should get a lot of attention.

223 hp - WOW - I'm still processing the possibilities.

Bob Axsom
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  #6  
Old 02-03-2011, 05:03 AM
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plehrke plehrke is offline
 
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Default

I would like to see the data divided by horsepower. That would be a simple indication on aero efficiency of the different types of aircraft.

More data that would be interesting (but imposible to get) is to compare these numbers to the factory claimed numbers for each type of aircraft as well as what the average builders aircraft speed numbers are. Comparing these to the numbers you have would show the amount of effort these people have gone through to get increase performance.

(give an engineer a little data and we will always ask for more more)
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  #7  
Old 02-03-2011, 07:11 AM
Alan Carroll's Avatar
Alan Carroll Alan Carroll is offline
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rvmills View Post
H
I haven't gone into the spreadsheets to play with Bob's data yet, but I'm wondering if the F1s can be broken out from the HRIIs (I'm assuming that they are currently lumped together). My guess is that if you broke out F1 EVOs, F1 Sport Wings and HRIIs, they would fall in that order...and my S-6 would fall in just behind the F1 Sport Wings.
Bob - The EVOs do appear to be faster than the sport wings, based on the chart and on actual race results (maybe this could be labeled better?). Tom Martin has skewed these data a bit by being so fast however...

There are only 4 data points for the HRIIs so I didn't include them on the chart, but their average was about 221 mph.

The Super-6 bar in the chart is all you; looks like you're neck and neck with the F1 Sport Wings! I think this agrees with the actual race results pretty well.
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  #8  
Old 02-03-2011, 07:22 AM
snowbird snowbird is offline
 
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Default

Nice job Bob!
One type not represented is the 9A. Two 9As were entered in Tom Martin's excellent Great Canadian Air Rally. Both 9As had identical specs (160hp, FP props). The times turned were within about 1% of each other at 182 and 184 mph. Not bad speeds for side-by-side comfy cruisers. Both pilots were racing newbies and may have done a bit better but for some less than optimal turns.
Greg Wilkinson
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  #9  
Old 02-03-2011, 07:31 AM
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Alan Carroll Alan Carroll is offline
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by plehrke View Post
I would like to see the data divided by horsepower. That would be a simple indication on aero efficiency of the different types of aircraft.

More data that would be interesting (but imposible to get) is to compare these numbers to the factory claimed numbers for each type of aircraft as well as what the average builders aircraft speed numbers are. Comparing these to the numbers you have would show the amount of effort these people have gone through to get increase performance.

(give an engineer a little data and we will always ask for more more)
Good questions. The horsepower part is approximated by the categories, but I'm not sure its possible to do better without more information than is reported on the spreadsheet (there's a lot of variation among the O-360s for example).

Comparison to the factory numbers is complicated by the fact that most of these races are timed off the departure end of the runway, some involve climbs, turns, etc. Also, a few of the entries may not have had been using full power. You can tell the serious racers because their throttle levers are slightly bent from being pushed forward

The actual race results are maybe a better indicator of airframe improvements? For example Bob Axsom has climbed significantly in the results due to his many modifications.
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  #10  
Old 02-03-2011, 09:35 AM
elippse elippse is offline
 
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Location: Arroyo Grande, CA
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by plehrke View Post
I would like to see the data divided by horsepower. That would be a simple indication on aero efficiency of the different types of aircraft.

More data that would be interesting (but imposible to get) is to compare these numbers to the factory claimed numbers for each type of aircraft as well as what the average builders aircraft speed numbers are. Comparing these to the numbers you have would show the amount of effort these people have gone through to get increase performance.

(give an engineer a little data and we will always ask for more more)
If you want to see a real figure of merit for a plane based on its speed and HP, divide the speed by the cube-root of the sea-level HP. For instance, if you get 200 mph on 180 HP, the figure of merit would be 200 x 180^-.333=35.42, or take the RV-8 Blue at 213 mph and 200 HP which would give 36.42. A really efficient plane will be in the 40s! For instance the VariEZ at 222 mph (probably Klaus') and, say 120HP, would be an outstanding 45.0!

I assume these are numbers from the SARL races which are conducted most times at altitudes below 4000'. If we use Jim Smith's 197 mph average of three flights at 4000' dalt on his 150 HP, his FOM would be 37.08, not too shabby!

Last edited by elippse : 02-03-2011 at 05:44 PM. Reason: Corrected speed from 196 to 197
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