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01-24-2011, 01:16 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Louisville, Ga
Posts: 7,840
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Your best bet is Don Rivera....
...at Airflow Performance, since it's his system. The guy really knows his stuff and helped me balance my six injectors in one afternoon on my -10.
There really is nothing magical or difficult to operate his injection system. When you get closer to flying, either call him or PM me.
Regards,
__________________
Pierre Smith
RV-10, 510 TT
RV6A (Sojourner) 180 HP, Catto 3 Bl (502Hrs), gone...and already missed
Air Tractor AT 502B PT 6-15 Sold
Air Tractor 402 PT-6-20 Sold
EAA Flight Advisor/CFI/Tech Counselor
Louisville, Ga
It's never skill or craftsmanship that completes airplanes, it's the will to do so,
Patrick Kenny, EAA 275132
Dues gladly paid!
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01-24-2011, 04:55 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 316
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Time to install
Determining the time it takes to install a fuel injection system on your plane is a difficult value to assume. I have been working on planes for 35 years and designing fuel injection systems for 27 years. I have installed a system on a customer?s aircraft that took a little over 110-man hours and I have installed a system on a customer?s plane that took 22 man-hours (hoses and all). It really depends, some people work faster than others (I?m typically slower) but on the other hand we can probably do an installation faster because we?ve done it before and we have all the tools, mill, lathe, welding equipment, hose making material etc. to do the job. To be conservative I would say the average person should be able to do the install on a flying RV (convert from carb to injection) in 40-50 man-hours. Depending on what kit you install FM kit with purge valve or FM-150 kit (no purge valve) will change the amount of effort you will have to expend doing the install. I will say that installing a FM kit on a flying, say, RV-6 is pretty straight forward, as the FM-200 fits in the same place as the MA4-5 carburetor. You can even use the existing cables as I have just put a 6? extension by threading a piece of 3/8? round aluminum stock to attach to the cable end and use a male rod end bearing on the other end to attach to the mixture control. A FM-150 system is a little easier as you don?t have to put in a purge valve cable or run the plumbing for the purge return, which tees into one of the tank feed lines. For us this is no big deal, for others it?s like pulling teeth.
So you see there?s no specific answer as for time to install. We do supply however a 180+ page Installation and Service Manual with each system. In it is the theory of operation, installation, tuning, troubleshooting and maintenance. There are numerous appendices that show numerous pictures of different installations to show you how to install the system and give you ideas if the install is unique. You can purchase the manual in advance for $50.00. If you then purchase one of our fuel injection systems, we discount the $50.00 of the price of the kit.
Don
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01-24-2011, 05:41 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Biggsville ILL
Posts: 82
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What does the purge valve do? What about putting the return line into the fuel tank is that hard? I like the idea of not having the change my cable's
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01-24-2011, 10:08 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Flagstaff, AZ
Posts: 2,653
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Don can probably answer this better but the purge valve allows fuel to be routed from the distribution spider, typically back to a fuel tank though I seem to recall that some have routed it back to a point before the high-pressure pump. The idea is that you can then pump fresh (cool) fuel into the system because the hot fuel at the spider has someplace to go. Hot start procedure is to run the pump for a few seconds with the valve on return to circulate cool fuel through the system and then close the valve and start the engine. You can also open the valve to stop the engine (no fuel to the spider) which leaves the mixture and throttle controls in the proper setting for restart (just close the purge valve).
Plumbing the purge valve requires you to route a line back to a tank (or at least back into the fuel system). On mine, I have a bulkhead fitting on the firewall and then a hard line along the right side back to the tank. Then there needs to be a penetration through the fuselage side and a fitting in the root rib (near the top) for the return line. For an already flying RV, that means draining the tank, removing it, installing the fitting, routing the lines, and re-installing everything. In order to avoid aluminum chips in my tank when I drilled for the fitting, I opened the end plate (mine uses cork and fuel lube instead of proseal) and stood the tank on end, root upward. While drilling the fitting hole, I held a dixie cup underneath (against the root rib) to catch chips and then used some duct tape to pick up any visible debris.
As I said in an earlier post, nothing about it was particularly hard. It was fairly time-consuming and I was very careful to check for leaks in the system as I buttoned it back up as well as checking for indications of debris in the system (not just from drilling but also simply because the system had been opened). Due diligence has paid off; since plumbing the purge, there have been no problems noted.
__________________
Patrick Kelley - Flagstaff, AZ
RV-6A N156PK - Flying too much to paint
RV-10 14MX(reserved) - Fuselage on gear
http://www.mykitlog.com/flion/
EAA Technical Counselor #5357
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01-24-2011, 10:28 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 5
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Retrofit Fuel Injection?
I am asking the question below because I haven't yet purchased an engine (haven't started and will not start building until this fall). So I am curious - the price difference between a new experiemental IO-360 ($25,300) verses an o-360 ($23,500) or about $2k. Is the after market that much cheaper or more reliable? Are those installing the aftermarket FI doing so because they found a great deal on a used Lycoming?
Forgive my innocence, but I am trying to understand something basic, and fear I am not coming across well. At one time their were independent shops selling rebuilt Lycoming engines for the experimental market that were cheaper than Van's engines. Is this still the case?
Appreciate the education, folks.
Greg
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01-25-2011, 07:41 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 08A
Posts: 9,500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m3tt5
What does the purge valve do? What about putting the return line into the fuel tank is that hard? I like the idea of not having the change my cable's
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The purge valve actually does three things with an FM200. Yes, it allows circulating cool fuel through a heat soaked system. It also serves as the positive fuel flow shutoff (cleaner engine shutdown), and it is used as the primary fuel control for hot or cold starting. The mixture control knob is not used for start or shutdown; it pretty much stays full rich on the ground except for taxi leaning well above MSL.
I stress three purposes because for panel planning you should realize you'll operate the purge valve for every start and stop. It is not merely a "hot start knob" to be stuck off in a corner somewhere.
And don't wimp out on the control....you want a knob or lever with an easily manipulated positive lock for position, quality push-pull cable, and the same sort of cable temination you would use on a fuel servo or carb.
Again, remember, if you don't want to rig and operate a purge valve you can buy the new FM150. FWIW, I like my FM200/IO390 combination.
Tee the return into a tank line prior to the fuel selector. Select the other tank for purge operation.
__________________
Dan Horton
RV-8 SS
Barrett IO-390
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01-25-2011, 09:19 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Douglas Flat, CA
Posts: 589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregfuess
...the price difference between a new experiemental IO-360 ($25,300) verses an o-360 ($23,500) or about $2k. ...
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You have to be careful with those designations. Without the letters and numbers following the "360" you don't know whether you're comparing parallel-valve engines with angle-valve engines.
__________________
Bob Kuykendall
HP-24 kit sailplane
EAA Technical Counselor
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01-25-2011, 11:23 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Beautiful NJ Shore
Posts: 409
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The big difference between the O-360 and the IO-360 that Vans sells is the IO has the forward facing cold induction sump. That is $1500+ all by itself. I plan on purchasing my engine thru Mattituck. Close to home and I can order it EXACTLY how I want it configured. And, the configuration is set up, tuned and bench tested before shipping.
__________________
Greg Piney
RV-8 2547
Empennage Done!
Beginning Fuselage Final Assembly!
(Tub finished, on to Landing Gear).
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01-25-2011, 05:47 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Kuykendall
You have to be careful with those designations. Without the letters and numbers following the "360" you don't know whether you're comparing parallel-valve engines with angle-valve engines.
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The designations and prices are Van's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpiney
The big difference between the O-360 and the IO-360 that Vans sells is the IO has the forward facing cold induction sump. That is $1500+ all by itself. I plan on purchasing my engine thru Mattituck. Close to home and I can order it EXACTLY how I want it configured. And, the configuration is set up, tuned and bench tested before shipping.
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So, where can one go to compare engine vendor's? What would you want in an engine, other than fuel injection (well, actually a turbocharger, but that is expensive and heavy?)?
Any help, direction, advise etc appreciated!
Greg
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01-26-2011, 07:20 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Louisville, Ga
Posts: 7,840
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Actually....
...the designations are Lycoming's. The prices are Van's.
Best,
__________________
Pierre Smith
RV-10, 510 TT
RV6A (Sojourner) 180 HP, Catto 3 Bl (502Hrs), gone...and already missed
Air Tractor AT 502B PT 6-15 Sold
Air Tractor 402 PT-6-20 Sold
EAA Flight Advisor/CFI/Tech Counselor
Louisville, Ga
It's never skill or craftsmanship that completes airplanes, it's the will to do so,
Patrick Kenny, EAA 275132
Dues gladly paid!
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