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  #1  
Old 01-05-2011, 07:33 AM
Jack Tyler Jack Tyler is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 219
Default LSA (RV-12) 'Groundrules' - Please Confirm

My wife & I have been off sailing, during which time the LSA class of aircraft was created. We're now re-entering aviation and considering an RV-12 to replace our previous Grumman AA-5. I've been climbing the learning curve on LSA's and on the ASTM standards which define them, and my understanding of the 'groundrules' which define their use is summarized below. I'm posting them here for a 'sanity check' from you -12 builders/owners, in part because I haven't found any 100% agreement from local builders and experimental a/c pilots on what's below. However, after a fair bit of digging I think all of the following is correct...but please challenge where you disagree:

-- An E-LSA a/c only 'begins life' after its builder first designs and builds the first unit as an S-LSA. This S-LSA a/c must be in compliance with the ASTM standards, and is then inspected and accepted as an 'approved' S-LSA by the FAA.
-- Following this, the builder can either continue to build identical S-LSA a/c and/or build and sell kits that will in turn produce the same a/c as approved. The finished kit would be considered an E-LSA class a/c.
-- When the builder sells an E-LSA kit, the buyer of the kit has two basic choices: The kit could be built 100% to the E-LSA's plans (and the Airworthiness Certificate sought from the FAA would be for the E-LSA class). Alternatively, the kit builder could modify the design and/or deviate from the plans, in which case an E-AB class AC would be sought from the FAA and the a/c would not be considered an LSA class a/c. Instead, it would be 'just another Experimental'.
-- Whether the S-LSA a/c is built abroad and imported (with approval as an LSA a/c being sought from the FAA by its U.S. distributor) or built domestically, all owners of this S-LSA are not allowed to make any subsequent modifications to the hull, engine or permanently installed equipment without approval from the builder, who in turn may well have to seek that approval from the FAA.
-- The home builder of the E-LSA kit, after AC issuance, can make changes to the a/c as s/he deems desirable without any factory approval - let's use the example of changing the prop on the engine. An annual inspection is required for this E-LSA a/c amd must be completed by a licensed A&P. And this is when it would be determined if any mods (e.g. that new prop) deviated from the ASTM standards and took the a/c out of its AC class.
-- If this same a/c owner completes a 16 hr. LSA Repairman Certificate course (such as http://www.sportair.org/workshops/Re...-Airplane.html), then the owner can do the annual condition inspection for this (and any other) LSA a/c which s/he owns (even including S-LSA's).

Have I got it about right?

Interestingly, it looks like we end up with a bit of the 'Fox guarding the hen house' when the E-LSA owner both is allowed to decide on adding the new prop and also is allowed to decide that the new prop does not invalidate the AC class. No gripe from me; just an observation.

Jack
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  #2  
Old 01-05-2011, 08:14 AM
JBPILOT JBPILOT is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Jesup, Iowa
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Default Hey Jack - -

Without over analyzing, looks like you have it about right.

John Bender
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  #3  
Old 01-05-2011, 08:33 AM
jte65 jte65 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Avon, Indiana
Posts: 341
Default A few additional comments

I think you are correct with one exception. The 16 hour repairman course allows one to perform the condition inspection on any E-LSA they own but they cannot do the inspection on a factory-built S-LSA (the link you provided specifies this as well). The S-LSA requires an A&P for sign-off (but not an IA like FAA certified aircraft).

One additional comment- as of right now, I think the RV-12 is the only kit being sold in the US that can be built as an E-LSA. Other kits that qualify as LSAs are being sold for E-AB certification instead (e.g. Rans S-19, Zenith, etc.).

Jeff
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  #4  
Old 01-05-2011, 09:10 AM
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Mel Mel is offline
 
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Location: Dallas area
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Default

One minor thing you left out is that an S-LSA may be re-certificated as an E-LSA. After that, modifications may be made to the aircraft just like any other experimental.
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EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
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USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
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  #5  
Old 01-05-2011, 09:16 AM
gpiney gpiney is offline
 
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Location: The Beautiful NJ Shore
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Default

Part of your 3rd point is not entirely correct. You wrote:

Alternatively, the kit builder could modify the design and/or deviate from the plans, in which case an E-AB class AC would be sought from the FAA and the a/c would not be considered an LSA class a/c. Instead, it would be 'just another Experimental'.

If the kit builder registers the completed A/C with Weights and Speeds within the LSA rules, the 'Experimental' aircraft can be flown as an LSA under LSA flight rules. The Sonex is a good example of this.
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  #6  
Old 01-05-2011, 09:25 AM
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Mel Mel is offline
 
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Default Yes, but No! Terminology!

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpiney View Post
If the kit builder registers the completed A/C with Weights and Speeds within the LSA rules, the 'Experimental' aircraft can be flown as an LSA under LSA flight rules. The Sonex is a good example of this.
As long as the aircraft meets light-sport parameters, the aircraft may be flown by a sport pilot, but it will never be an LSA (Light-Sport Aircraft). Even certified aircraft meeting light-sport parameters can be flown by a sport pilot, but that does not make them an LSA.
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Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>
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  #7  
Old 01-05-2011, 05:06 PM
sandpiper sandpiper is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Independence, OR
Posts: 316
Default

Jeff,

The S-LSA manufacturer determines the level of certification required to do work on and inspect S-LSA. Most specify an A&P or a Light Sport Repairman with a maintenance rating (LSRM). The LSRM differs fron the 16 hour course in that it requires 120 hours. With a LSRM in the airplane category (LSRM-A), the holder can legally hang out a shingle and do work/inspections on any S-LSA or E-LSA airplane unless specified otherwise by the manufacturer. Might not be the smartest thing to do, depending on the holders experience, but it is legal.

I don't know about E-LSA, but in the case of S-LSA any work not covered in the Maintenance Manual can only be done as approved by the manufacturer to include method, materials and who (they might name the shop, license level, or a person by name) on a case by case basis.
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  #8  
Old 01-05-2011, 05:45 PM
Mel's Avatar
Mel Mel is offline
 
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Location: Dallas area
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Default Interesting!

How do you manage that?

Our instructors in Oklahoma City tell us that we can re-certificate any S-LSA as an E-LSA under the provisions of 14CFR part 21.191(i)(3).
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Mel Asberry, DAR since the last century.
EAA Flight Advisor/Tech Counselor, Friend of the RV-1
Recipient of Tony Bingelis Award and Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award
USAF Vet, High School E-LSA Project Mentor.
RV-6 Flying since 1993 (sold)
<rvmel(at)icloud.com>

Last edited by Mel : 01-05-2011 at 06:13 PM.
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  #9  
Old 01-05-2011, 05:55 PM
sandpiper sandpiper is offline
 
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Default

I'm with Mel. I know of one owner in the CT world who converted his S-LSA CT to E-LSA and I saw where a Sky Arrow owner converted his. This is second hand knowlege on a subject which I know nothing about.
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  #10  
Old 01-05-2011, 06:50 PM
Mich48041 Mich48041 is offline
 
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Location: Riley TWP MI
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Default LSA

Quote:
As long as the aircraft meets light-sport parameters, the aircraft may be flown by a sport pilot, but it will never be an LSA (Light-Sport Aircraft).
Hmm, I thought that any aircraft that meets light-sport parameters IS an LSA. According to the EAA, "The FAA defines a light-sport aircraft as an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following:"
See http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/fina..._synopsis.html
Perhaps you were thinking S-LSA?
There are no aircraft registered as LSA. Aircraft can be registered as S-LSA, E-LSA, E-AB, type certificated, and etc. No matter how an aircraft is registered, if it meets the above parameters, it is an LSA and can be flown by a sport pilot. Let me know if I have this wrong.
Joe
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