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11-25-2010, 12:46 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Big Sandy, WY
Posts: 2,567
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Haven't we discussed this one before? Its a pretty unfair comparison, they are two completely different vehicles. I've been hauling 175 gallons of water in my diesel pickup about every other day since the irrigation company turned off the canal. I don't expect my parents prius to be able to do that, or even try. I also haul 10 tons of hay on the 24' flatbed trailer hooked up to the gooseneck mount on the diesel pickup. even if you stuffed 2 or 3 bales of hay in the prius per trip you'd have so much more fuel costs and time wasted to make the equivalent load hauling trip. There is no comparison.
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I think I can make this comparison when there's only one guy & no load on these pickups I pass. I also haul hay and water with my pickup, but I usually take the prius to the feed store, plenty of room. Have also hauled an airplane engine in the prius. Point is: Using a hog as your runabout is kinda like flying solo cross-country in a Beaver. If that's all you got, okay, but you'd be happier in an RV (notice how I brought this back around to RV's). Prius cost about 25K new. How much is a new Dura-Max? As for battery scoffers, my mom has an 01 prius & my wife has an 02 model. Both hybrid batteries are still in great shape, tires are way cheaper than any of my trucks (still have 3). Plus, I don't think the priuses will ever need a brake job. When you need a truck, you need a truck. That doesn't mean you need to buy a $40k truck every 3-4 years because you wore it out going to the grocery store. I live in a drilling boom town. Don't think I haven't heard it all. I've had guys box me in and intentionally belch diesel smoke at me to show their disdain. I'm used to it. Same as ignorant spam-canners making faces at my "homebuilt".
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11-26-2010, 01:39 PM
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: central oregon
Posts: 1,089
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerhed
I think I can make this comparison when there's only one guy & no load on these pickups I pass. I also haul hay and water with my pickup, but I usually take the prius to the feed store, plenty of room. Have also hauled an airplane engine in the prius. Point is: Using a hog as your runabout is kinda like flying solo cross-country in a Beaver. If that's all you got, okay, but you'd be happier in an RV (notice how I brought this back around to RV's). Prius cost about 25K new. How much is a new Dura-Max? As for battery scoffers, my mom has an 01 prius & my wife has an 02 model. Both hybrid batteries are still in great shape, tires are way cheaper than any of my trucks (still have 3). Plus, I don't think the priuses will ever need a brake job. When you need a truck, you need a truck. That doesn't mean you need to buy a $40k truck every 3-4 years because you wore it out going to the grocery store. I live in a drilling boom town. Don't think I haven't heard it all. I've had guys box me in and intentionally belch diesel smoke at me to show their disdain. I'm used to it. Same as ignorant spam-canners making faces at my "homebuilt".
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if you need the truck for its hauling capacity, sometimes it will have to be driven at less than that capacity. thats just the way of life. My ford was bought 1/2 year old in 99, its still running well for me. battery scoffers: heres a http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-p...tml#post941410 persons experience having a battery go bad. it happens, i'm just not sure anyone knows reliable numbers other than these random personal experiences. My parents prius' battery was discharged once had to get hauled to the shop. the battery was still good though.
an RV 12 with an electric motor and battery would be pretty cool if the weight can be managed.
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11-26-2010, 02:12 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,275
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Danny, perhaps someone can try it. But given current technology, what you you think your range would be?
Airspeed?
Useful load?
Recharge time to continue a cross country?
Cost to implement?
Then once you answer those tell me if it is realistic.
Last edited by Ron Lee : 11-27-2010 at 02:24 PM.
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11-26-2010, 08:48 PM
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: central oregon
Posts: 1,089
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I don't think it is possible with current technology. But look at the rapid change in model motors, from commercial intro of brushless motors just in the last decade, to sensored motors that have higher than 80% efficiencies. All it really took was someone to connect a new prototype with the buying public. I think similar engine, controller, and battery technologies will be found and applied to full size (or nearly full size) airplanes. no one knows the timeline though, but i can guess it is usually going to be longer than any electric motor fan would like.
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11-26-2010, 08:53 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ankeny, Iowa
Posts: 194
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Sport Aviation had an article about year ago I think on an electric sonex. (I'm trying to remember the details without hunting for the article)
They had an hour of charge, and let it charge overnight and during the day when they were at work. For their purpose of very cheap pattern work / local sightseeing, it sounded like it worked really well. I think they also had conventionally powered airplanes for their cross-country adventures.
A lot of my flight training was 1 hour local flights so it doesn't sound like an unreasonable idea to me. I'm guessing an hour of electricity is a whole lot less than an hour of avgas.
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Chanler Childs
RV-8A
Empennage complete
Building wings
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11-26-2010, 09:32 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: northern Cal
Posts: 111
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fuel
Fossil fuel is the most efficient fuel we have. It takes a gallon of fossil fuel to produce a gallon of corn ethanol so how is that efficient. We are burning fuel to add ethanol to our fuel. Some hybrid cars are a joke. they don't get that good of fuel mileage . I have had several Saturn cars that would get 40mpg and now they quit mqking them because of politics. Electric cars have there place but not where I live. We do not have the electrical grid that would support a whole lot of electric cars. fossil fuel is still the most efficient fuel to produce and least costly.
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11-27-2010, 10:41 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Big Sandy, WY
Posts: 2,567
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Quote:
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an RV 12 with an electric motor and battery would be pretty cool if the weight can be managed.
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At least you wouldn't have to worry about spilling fuel on the back window. This is good discussion. Makes people think, at least. Have you seen R/C electrics do a prop hang while someone plucks them out of the air? Now that'd be a good way to land an "A" model! Just need some guy with giant fingers to set you on the ramp.
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11-27-2010, 12:10 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1,231
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For those concerned about the environment, or simply interested in what's coming soon, here are a few interesting developments:
CO2 scrubber for coal plants - economically reduce CO2 emissions by 90%. Impact: If applied globally, would reduce coal plant emissions to pre-industrial levels.
Liquid Battery that never wears out. Impact: If deployed at power sub-stations around the country along with the associated electronics (charger / inverter), would allow leveling power loads so that all power plants could operate continuously at optimum (e.g. least polluting / most efficient) levels. Such stationary batteries are critical to future inclusion of variable energy sources such as solar and wind power. It would also help alleviate concerns about upgrading the transmission infrastructure to handle the additional burden of a growing fleet of electric vehicles. Finally, they may start building such things into the foundations of new homes - so that every home has a built-in backup power system. No more power outages!
Metal-Air Ionic Batteries. Impact: Potentially 11 times the energy density of the best lithium-ion batteries. This is the holy grail, folks - because this is right in the vicinity of equaling the energy density of gasoline. Will this be the technology that takes us there? Too soon to tell, but one thing is fairly certain - once we have proven the feasibility in the lab, it's just a matter of reducing manufacturing costs. Given that electricity is ultimately around 10% of the cost per kilowatt of delivered power, the batteries can be fairly expensive and still make sense in the long run (e.g. for airplanes).
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11-27-2010, 12:35 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: 1T7, Kestrel Airpark , Texas
Posts: 773
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vgb
fossil fuel is still the most efficient fuel to produce and least costly.
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The cost math is not quite as simple as it appears. Don't forget to figure in the low efficiency for an internal combustion engine (at best only 30-40%) and the trillions of dollars spent (not to mention lives) to secure the source of mid-east oil and the cost of gasoline is quite higher.
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Wade Lively
-8, Flying!
N100WL
IO-360A3B6D, WW 200RV
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11-27-2010, 07:00 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,412
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When the scheduled 14,000 year warming trend ends (it's near enough, see Burt Rutan's presentation) and the falacy of global warming is abandoned, Power systems will again be judged on merit, not politics and crony capitalism.
Maybe sooner if the global economy continues to collapse. Austerity programs are already spreading across Europe, and every debter nation will have to face the fact that all those laws to promote fairness and reelect incumbants have bogged down the economy. Subsidies for 'green jobs' will dry up. Good ideas can make it on merit alone.
Electric cars make sense if the trips are short. Communites will adapt, city parking meters will be recharge stands. Just swipe your debit card.
Personal parking spaces at work will become even more cherished for the recharge stand. This is how limited battery capacity is mitigated.
Batteries will slide out like cassettes, so flight lessons can continue all day.
Gasoline and synthetic equivalents will still be available. Cars and trucks will have computers that tune the engine for whatever fuel. Sort of diesels with spark plugs that are also combustion sensors. Folks in the exburbs and countryside might not find electric cars useful.
Nothing will be like it was, yet it will still be the same. You can still fly a Jenny, drive your cherished Pickup and park it next to your new fangled Electrik plane.
The next issue is infrastructure. I never noticed anyone other than this forum mention it. It took a century to develop our liquid hydrocarbon delivery system to what it is now. Electric grid improvements seem the most possible on the established system if new power plants are permitted & built. Methane Hydrates and Natural gas...we have lots of it.
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Scott Emery
http://gallery.eaa326.org/v/members/semery/
EAA 668340, chapter 326 & IAC chapter 67
RV-8 N89SE first flight 12/26/2013
Yak55M, and the wife has an RV-4
There is nothing-absolute nothing-half so much worth doing as simply messing around with Aeroplanes
(with apologies to Ratty)
2019
Last edited by SHIPCHIEF : 11-27-2010 at 07:03 PM.
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